rgamurot

B744 Rolls Royce Electrical Issue

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I'm so far only noticing the following on RR equipped planes. I've seen it specifically on the -400, -400F and -400BCF.

Since I always have trouble with the default panel saves, I'll just start fresh and then set the panel state I want from that. In this specific case, I want to go cold and dark. So I load the sim into any airport but specifically a RR equipped -400. Once the sim is running and the initialization for the aircraft is complete, I'll pull all four fuel control switches to cutoff. After the engines spin down, the plane is still powered for a good minute or so before everything sort of starts flickering. I'll get the battery and the standby power and then any other switches. Then I'll switch the batt back on, start the APU and bring the plane back. After I start the engines this time the generators refuse to take the electrical load. If I turn the APU generator off, everything keeps flickering and I hear the relays going nuts.

Quick steps to recreate:

  1. Load sim anywhere but load into RR -400
  2. Move all four fuel control switches to cutoff. Wait for everything to start flickering.
  3. Turn off battery and standby power. (Other switches like fuel pumps and hydraulics can be turned off but I've seen no difference on outcome)
  4. Turn on battery and standby power.
  5. Start APU. Once running, put it on the BUS
  6. Start engines. Engine Generators will NOT take the electrical load.

So far the only other planes I've tried this with is the -400ER and the -8/-8F. All of those work fine and as expected. Also, if I connect the APU or GPU before I kill the engines, this will not happen.

And before someone yells at me, I know this isn't the correct normal procedure to go cold and dark. This is just my quick and dirty way but it still shouldn't do this.

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40 minutes ago, rgamurot said:

I'm so far only noticing the following on RR equipped planes. I've seen it specifically on the -400, -400F and -400BCF.

Since I always have trouble with the default panel saves, I'll just start fresh and then set the panel state I want from that. In this specific case, I want to go cold and dark. So I load the sim into any airport but specifically a RR equipped -400. Once the sim is running and the initialization for the aircraft is complete, I'll pull all four fuel control switches to cutoff. After the engines spin down, the plane is still powered for a good minute or so before everything sort of starts flickering. I'll get the battery and the standby power and then any other switches. Then I'll switch the batt back on, start the APU and bring the plane back. After I start the engines this time the generators refuse to take the electrical load. If I turn the APU generator off, everything keeps flickering and I hear the relays going nuts.

Quick steps to recreate:

  1. Load sim anywhere but load into RR -400
  2. Move all four fuel control switches to cutoff. Wait for everything to start flickering.
  3. Turn off battery and standby power. (Other switches like fuel pumps and hydraulics can be turned off but I've seen no difference on outcome)
  4. Turn on battery and standby power.
  5. Start APU. Once running, put it on the BUS
  6. Start engines. Engine Generators will NOT take the electrical load.

So far the only other planes I've tried this with is the -400ER and the -8/-8F. All of those work fine and as expected. Also, if I connect the APU or GPU before I kill the engines, this will not happen.

And before someone yells at me, I know this isn't the correct normal procedure to go cold and dark. This is just my quick and dirty way but it still shouldn't do this.

If you shutdown the engines without first transferring to APU or ground AC power to take up the electrical load, then of course there are going to be major electrical malfunctions as soon as the engine generators drop off line. This is not even remotely a proper procedure. In this case, the battery will be carrying the total load of all systems - (at least those that can run off of DC power). The battery has limited capacity, and in a situation like this, it will be depleted very quickly, which probably accounts for the relay chatter and flickering lights/displays.

 

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2 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

If you shutdown the engines without first transferring to APU or ground AC power to take up the electrical load, then of course there are going to be major electrical malfunctions as soon as the engine generators drop off line. This is not even remotely a proper procedure. In this case, the battery will be carrying the total load of all systems - (at least those that can run off of DC power). The battery has limited capacity, and in a situation like this, it will be depleted very quickly, which probably accounts for the relay chatter and flickering lights/displays.

 

The issue isn't everything dropping offline. It's that it 1) doesn't drop offline for almost a full minute until after the engines are shut down and the generators still show as operational and 2) when I go to restart the engines, the generators never take the load back.

Also, when the aircraft loses the generators and has no other electrical source other than the battery, it should revert to (what we call on the ATR anyway) battery basic mode. Most systems will shut down and (in the case of the 747 for the most part) only the Left PFD, ND, and upper EICAS should be on along with certain cockpit lights. The lower EICAS, and Right displays are the ones flickering. There are also many off lights that are flickering on the overhead like the pressure lights on the fuel pump switches.

And again, I know this isn't the proper procedure. It's just a quick way I use to get to cold and dark instead of using a saved panel state. It's partially adapted from the ATR when we know we reposition the aircraft to a stand for storage and don't have ground power.

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8 hours ago, rgamurot said:

I'm so far only noticing the following on RR equipped planes. I've seen it specifically on the -400, -400F and -400BCF.

Since I always have trouble with the default panel saves, I'll just start fresh and then set the panel state I want from that. In this specific case, I want to go cold and dark. So I load the sim into any airport but specifically a RR equipped -400. Once the sim is running and the initialization for the aircraft is complete, I'll pull all four fuel control switches to cutoff. After the engines spin down, the plane is still powered for a good minute or so before everything sort of starts flickering. I'll get the battery and the standby power and then any other switches. Then I'll switch the batt back on, start the APU and bring the plane back. After I start the engines this time the generators refuse to take the electrical load. If I turn the APU generator off, everything keeps flickering and I hear the relays going nuts.

Quick steps to recreate:

  1. Load sim anywhere but load into RR -400
  2. Move all four fuel control switches to cutoff. Wait for everything to start flickering.
  3. Turn off battery and standby power. (Other switches like fuel pumps and hydraulics can be turned off but I've seen no difference on outcome)
  4. Turn on battery and standby power.
  5. Start APU. Once running, put it on the BUS
  6. Start engines. Engine Generators will NOT take the electrical load.

So far the only other planes I've tried this with is the -400ER and the -8/-8F. All of those work fine and as expected. Also, if I connect the APU or GPU before I kill the engines, this will not happen.

And before someone yells at me, I know this isn't the correct normal procedure to go cold and dark. This is just my quick and dirty way but it still shouldn't do this.

 

Excusing your disregard for standard Boeing normal or supplementary procedure

you are right to the extent that the electrics from the engine/s continue to fully power the airplane’s AC electrics whilst spooled down, without external power and apu available and thus, not connected. That is a fault.

I was able to successfully re-power the airplane with apu as the electric source. The apu started on the second attempt (both attempts obviously from the battery).

You can now log a support ticket; keeping in mind my opening statement.

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Thank you for your advice. I submitted a ticket and it is indeed a bug. They are working on it.

As far as my technique for getting to cold and dark. Again allow me to offer a far better example. Imagine you're at FSI and the crew before you did not reset the sim. It's sitting on the runway, the #2 fire handle is pulled, the # 2 condition lever is in fuel shut off like it should be but #1 is still in AUTO. All your anti ice is at level 1 when it should be shut off for the power up. You're not going to get in and waste your time following ATR procedure to get the sim to cold and dark. You're just going to (curse the previous crew,) sit there, reset the switches as fast as you can to the state you want (typically cold and dark at least for us), and then get on with your sim session.

Think of it like that. I loaded the sim and it's not in the state I want so I just go flipping switches to get to the state I want. Then I follow procedures. I know what I was doing initially is not normal but even in the real world (in a multi million dollar sim your company is paying time for) this is what we do if we get in and it's not set how we want.

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I stumbled across this issue the other day where for the life of me I couldn’t get eng 2 & 3 electrics online after engine start.

I dismissed it as a bad start state and deleted the file.

 I’ve been starting from the default cold and dark state now without further issue although I haven’t done the above mentioned process to replicate the problem.

good post 

thx

IM

 

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If in the course of a cyclic a few non normals are actioned, at its conclusion the outgoing crew would reconfigure back to normal pre flight state effected by reversal of the qrh non normal checklist and a quick run through the normal procedures flow. All done within a minute or two, 5 max.

Should this not be done - The incumbent crew would detect this and should instigate a preflight to ensure it’s set for a new session. A report on the tardiness of the previous crew forthcoming.

i reject your suggestion that crews enter the deck and rectify what they see wrong willy nilly, and crack on. That would be unprofessional - procedure would be applied.

Procedure is the difference between professional and unprofessional - period.

 

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Ryan, what happened to that PMDG Beta Tester signature banner that was displayed earlier today?

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22 minutes ago, vc10man said:

Ryan, what happened to that PMDG Beta Tester signature banner that was displayed earlier today?

I still see it on my screen.

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6 hours ago, Copper. said:

i reject your suggestion that crews enter the deck and rectify what they see wrong willy nilly, and crack on. That would be unprofessional - procedure would be applied.

Procedure is the difference between professional and unprofessional - period.

 

I understand your argument and you are correct. I am not talking about an actual aircraft. If I came in at work and found a plane like I had described there would be massive consequences and we'd definitely be delayed. I'm talking about a sim. I have gone into a sim during my recurrent on the ATR and found the SIM not reconfigured for my session. Because we only have 3 sessions at 4 hours each before the checkride, time literally is of the essence. Even when everything is set for us, we will still cut it close before the next crew but my company believes in resetting the sim before we leave. There are probably 5 different company that uses the same sim as us and any 1 might not have the same level of respect for the next crew mine does.

I am treating this as I would any other SIM. You get in, set the state it's supposed to be in for your purposes if it's not, then run the appropriate checklist.

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I understand. I suppose it is a luxury to not have to share facilities with multiple outfits - in this way, the same process would apply across the board and the sim would not be so out of configuration (save, a few errors which SHOULD get picked up and assessed on). Time constraints also not too much of an issue as the sim is owned and alot of operating experience means timing is down to an art usually with a bit of fat.

I’m sorry for my ignorance.

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As it's a sim and not the real plane why don't you just load the CLDDRK panel state which IS clean then flick your switches to the state you wish THEN save it as a new panel state? Surely less chance for messed up electronics when there's no power in the cockpit to start with? Plus the whole procedure would be more realistic and less prone to finding bugs never enc2in real life situations? 

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5 hours ago, Copper. said:

I understand. I suppose it is a luxury to not have to share facilities with multiple outfits - in this way, the same process would apply across the board and the sim would not be so out of configuration (save, a few errors which SHOULD get picked up and assessed on). Time constraints also not too much of an issue as the sim is owned and alot of operating experience means timing is down to an art usually with a bit of fat.

I’m sorry for my ignorance.

Don't worry about it. At work we would LOVE to have our own sim for two reasons. The first we just discussed. The second is that the only FSI with an ATR sim is in Houston. We're based in Honolulu and part of our agreement with our customer is we fly on them to a gateway city like LAX and then connect to Houston. That means leaving Honolulu on the 8am to LAX, sitting on a 4 hour layover, and getting to our hotel in Hobby at 1:30am the next morning. Nevermind the 4 hour time difference. Thankfully I'm an FO so I only do recurrent once a year in January. If I had to go in the summer the time difference is 5 hours and did I mention we only get about a day to settle in before starting a 7am systems lecture for 8 hours before our first sim session that afternoon?

4 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

As it's a sim and not the real plane why don't you just load the CLDDRK panel state which IS clean then flick your switches to the state you wish THEN save it as a new panel state? Surely less chance for messed up electronics when there's no power in the cockpit to start with? Plus the whole procedure would be more realistic and less prone to finding bugs never enc2in real life situations? 

I also use FS2Crew and I've had issues with saved panel states. Waiting through a 60 minute preflight sequence only to find an issue after engine start is frustrating. I've even made my own panel states in the past and at random, I'd find them corrupt maybe a month or two later. The only thing that (typically) works reliably was just getting to cold and dark by turning everything off after the sim initializes.

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17 hours ago, rgamurot said:

Don't worry about it. At work we would LOVE to have our own sim for two reasons. The first we just discussed. The second is that the only FSI with an ATR sim is in Houston. We're based in Honolulu and part of our agreement with our customer is we fly on them to a gateway city like LAX and then connect to Houston. That means leaving Honolulu on the 8am to LAX, sitting on a 4 hour layover, and getting to our hotel in Hobby at 1:30am the next morning. Nevermind the 4 hour time difference. Thankfully I'm an FO so I only do recurrent once a year in January. If I had to go in the summer the time difference is 5 hours and did I mention we only get about a day to settle in before starting a 7am systems lecture for 8 hours before our first sim session that afternoon?

I also use FS2Crew and I've had issues with saved panel states. Waiting through a 60 minute preflight sequence only to find an issue after engine start is frustrating. I've even made my own panel states in the past and at random, I'd find them corrupt maybe a month or two later. The only thing that (typically) works reliably was just getting to cold and dark by turning everything off after the sim initializes.

What I don't understand is that you are still loading up the plane in a panel state, the default one with engines running ready to go. Which itself was probably cold and dark until the devs turned everything on and then saved it as default state. Issues you are having are more likely to be affected by the plane that was loaded before the pmdg. 

 But if it works for you then that's the most important thing! 

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30 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

What I don't understand is that you are still loading up the plane in a panel state, the default one with engines running ready to go. Which itself was probably cold and dark until the devs turned everything on and then saved it as default state. Issues you are having are more likely to be affected by the plane that was loaded before the pmdg. 

 But if it works for you then that's the most important thing! 

His issues is not due to the way he does thinks. Yes he does it out of the ordinary but I say again his issues is not due to the way he does it. This will be fixed in a future update, not the upcoming one.

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