Real AI with ATC

[Coneman 71]

I think we are trying to mix ATC and AI Traffic as being one in the same. I can maybe see MS implementing Real ATC, but then you would need AI Traffic to go with it, which is no small thing. You would need models for all the regional, domestic and international stuff, then all the liveries, which would be an enormous amount of work. And the models would have to be AI specific, i.e. multiple LODs, lower poly count, optimized, etc. Otherwise your frame rates would come to a standstill. And then all those airlines would need flightplans to be written. The data may be out there, but it has to correlated into FS specific plans. Again, no small thing.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Coneman

[Noooch 1,084]

Why mix live traffic with AI ? It could be 2 different options: one for real weather, the other for custom weather.

[ConstVoid 110]

It should be completely optional, not based on whether you have selected real-time weather. If/when Microsoft or 3rd parties come up with a good ATC which controls the player and AI traffic I would still want to have real-time weather, but not real AI, as the ATC wouldn't be in control.

Also fade in/out is a complete fudge that would make me want to turn off AI completely. Much better would be for the in-built ATC to monitor nearby real-world traffic, and inject an AI into FS for each real aircraft. If there is a model/paint available it should use that, otherwise it would pick Landmark etc.The AI would then be under the control of MS ATC until it either reached its destination, or until it was far enough away from the player aircraft to be irrelevant.

[Lorby_SI 2,038]

9 hours ago, MatthewS said:

Implement the "safety bubble" and fade-out/in aircraft that are getting too close to your aircraft.

Sure it's not perfect, and you could turn off the real world traffic, but frankly I'd rather have the world populated with traffic.

For me personally, having objects - especially other aircraft - being there one moment and vanishing the next, breaks immersion like nothing else does. And that IMO is the big issue with live traffic, that it doesn't care at all if you are there or not, so collision detection is mandatory. But collision avoidance also means not being "live" anymore. 

The better option is to only use the data point that tells you that a flight is happening, but keeping the aircraft itself under simulator control all the time. Even if that means that it doesn't follow the real world route. That way you also make use of the in-sim ATC system (if there is one).

Best regards 

[OSJJ1985 134]

Why so complicated? If the new FS can read weather data and translate it into the weather system in the simulator (the weather system than reacts by Simulator parameters in real time) than surely the same can be done to traffic. It would stream crucial traffic parameters like flight number, regestration, origin destination, the actual live part is just the aircraft location. The streaming part would just be to spawn traffic. Flying and controlling would be done in the simulator, and ATC would account for the weather in the Sim and not what's live. And if there will be historical weather I am sure there can be historical traffic (you really only need 7 days at max.). And then let the community take care for most of the models and liveries for model matching just like we have now. At start you would use more generic planes to fill the skies (better white planes than none) and bit by bit match planes correctly starting with registration, airline code, aircraft type, etc... 

I really don't need live traffic by the millisecond and inch. It has to be believable within the Sim world, NOT the real world.

Edited October 15, 2019 by OSJJ1985

[MatthewS 761]

4 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

being there one moment and vanishing the next, breaks immersion like nothing else does

Yes maybe... but I'd rather have the skies/airports populated with lots of real world traffic,  even if sometimes aircraft fade-out because I'm getting too close.  

But I guess FS2020 could just control my aircraft, giving everyone else the "right off way" and directing me into a hold, or to hold short of a runway.... but still, sometimes real world AI aircraft are going to get too close, so in those situations it fades em out.

[FDEdev 955]

Real Life AI traffic?  Seriously?  At this moment there are at least 11000 flights happening.  This might have a slight impact on performance 😉

Furthermore this would mean that you can't fly into JFK, ORD etc. whenever you want, since there's simply not enough space between the aircraft to squeeze you in.

ATC wouldn't work for the same reason.  

[Lorby_SI 2,038]

13 minutes ago, MatthewS said:

Yes maybe... but I'd rather have the skies/airports populated with lots of real world traffic,  even if sometimes aircraft fade-out because I'm getting too close.  

But I guess FS2020 could just control my aircraft, giving everyone else the "right off way" and directing me into a hold, or to hold short of a runway.... but still, sometimes real world AI aircraft are going to get too close, so in those situations it fades em out.

Imagine you are at the runway of a major hub, say EDDM, with dense traffic. There just is no slot for you to take off, aircraft are landing and taking off in 90 second intervals. So the simulator has to delete all departing traffic that is taxiing up behind you, until you decide to taxi on the runway, at which point the sim has to delete all incoming traffic too, until you take off. I don't find this terribly immersive. That means that instead of situational awareness of other aircraft, you learn to simply ignore them.

There are a couple of reference implementations for the current sims where you can try out yourself what live traffic in a sim looks like. There are apps running live-live traffic and others creating sim-live traffic (that uses ATC). 

Best regards

Edited October 15, 2019 by Lorby_SI

[MatthewS 761]

45 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

Imagine you are at the runway of a major hub, say EDDM, with dense traffic. There just is no slot for you to take off, aircraft are landing and taking off in 90 second intervals. So the simulator has to delete all departing traffic that is taxiing up behind you, until you decide to taxi on the runway, at which point the sim has to delete all incoming traffic too, until you take off. I don't find this terribly immersive. That means that instead of situational awareness of other aircraft, you learn to simply ignore them.

Well, temporarily delete (fade-out/fade-in) when any aircraft is too close to my aircraft.   I don't want ATC, I just want the world populated with real world AI.

 

[MatthewS 761]

50 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

Real Life AI traffic?  Seriously?  At this moment there are at least 11000 flights happening.  This might have a slight impact on performance 😉

Furthermore this would mean that you can't fly into JFK, ORD etc. whenever you want, since there's simply not enough space between the aircraft to squeeze you in.

ATC wouldn't work for the same reason.  

I'm sure Azure will have no trouble managing 11,000 flights.  FS2020 on my pc only needs to "stream" aircraft within say 100nm of my aircraft.... (can I see aircraft lights 100nm away??)

Read my post about a "safety bubble", where aircraft that are too close to mine (within the "bubble") fade-out until then exit the bubble when they fade back in.

It's not ATC, nor do I want ATC.    I just want the FS2020 skies/airports populated with lots of real world traffic.

[FDEdev 955]

6 minutes ago, MatthewS said:

It's not ATC, nor do I want ATC.    I just want the FS2020 skies/airports populated with lots of real world traffic.

That's about the most unrealistic traffic/ATC implementation/interaction imaginable.

[Noooch 1,084]

59 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

Imagine you are at the runway of a major hub, say EDDM, with dense traffic. There just is no slot for you to take off, aircraft are landing and taking off in 90 second intervals. So the simulator has to delete all departing traffic that is taxiing up behind you, until you decide to taxi on the runway, at which point the sim has to delete all incoming traffic too, until you take off. I don't find this terribly immersive. That means that instead of situational awareness of other aircraft, you learn to simply ignore them.

There are a couple of reference implementations for the current sims where you can try out yourself what live traffic in a sim looks like. There are apps running live-live traffic and others creating sim-live traffic (that uses ATC). 

Best regards

Not because we don't have the perfect solution right now means they should drop the idea...

This is a great idea and I am sure someone at Asobo will figure it out.

[MatthewS 761]

3 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

That's about the most unrealistic traffic/ATC implementation/interaction imaginable.

Not interested in ATC... I just want the FS2020 skies/airports populated with real world traffic.  You can turn that feature off in the options and wait 2 years for Radar Contact or whatever.

Edited October 15, 2019 by MatthewS

[Noooch 1,084]

2 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

That's about the most unrealistic traffic/ATC implementation/interaction imaginable.

Not if this is optionnal, each simmer see realism in his own way 🙂

[FDEdev 955]

AI traffic without ATC isn't realistic, ATC without AI traffic can be realistic, it's that simple.