The Core of your Next Generation Virtual Reality Headset?

[HiFlyer 9,343]

Interesting.......

 

[jaytee73 132]

This projections this video makes  the sizzle of MS 2020 out of date  - so Stop thinking 2020 -

and start thinking 2022 - and 8k HDR 10 x 60FPS  via  5 G and the cloud.

But I cant envisage the PC to cope with this - but I can see X Box THREE and Samsung's Odyssey 😉

 - but I remain unconvinced of VR and Flight Simming - but definitely in the sphere of Arma 3 E.G.

Elite Dangerous - and similar temptations.

[sbclark 55]

This is really good news, hopefully the Qualcomm Snapdragon XR2 5G will make it in the Oculus Rift 2.0 we were all looking forward to last spring, but got the S model instead. This should help the HMD mfgr's get past the resolution and FOV limitations.

However, I have been quite happy with the Oculus S unit for P3D v4 and DCS!

Bill Clark

[jaytee73 132]

In addition to my comment above 5 days ago - I wish to further reply to Hi flyers video above with 2  questions

I have most of the Orbx TE - PD or XP and asked the question - " who needs 2020" 

because - as very OLD simmer - by age and practice - I have watched the technical Achievements

grow in actual Flying experiences - and the ground I am flying over - in all the aircraft we want and 

I am impressed.      Just take a look at this Forum's section on downloaded screenshots.

 

As a person involved for a long time in computer graphics - I have also watched the growth of colour

and resolution - not only in Flight Sims but in the general computer flat screen "age". 

Some years ago - I dabbled in the PC - VR scene making videos for the Realty business's "walk arounds"

 

I have noticed a growing community in the Flight VR forums - few in Orbyx - but more on here. I have only tried a controller

for the PS4 game machine - but my X Box doesn't have one - and I ask why not?   Is it the resolution - colour - i.e.

the 2 items that don't impress me on the PS4.- or is MS waiting for something else

 

Although it probably might not occur before I fall from the tree - I see the future in this type of simm - that is -

to replace my Track IR - with VR - once they can give me a picture approaching  my current 4 K HDR10 - 43" monitor -

(the latest are 8K) - at around 4000' AGL.

 

So I would ask you V/Reality simmers - how does the TE scenery from Orbx perform on your latest VR controllers ?? - and why the Samsung

controller  - endorsed by MS - is not very popular and selling at Half price in recent months - despite it having a resolution spec. - ahead of other current units

 

OK - what can I expect if I jump in now with a half price 2 K Samsung Odyssey - will my Orbx TE scenery be as good as the 43" flat screen - TrackIR - 

OR - should I wait for the next generation of VR flight simming - by VR -  and all the juicy  specifications in the video?????

 

[andreh 125]

23 hours ago, jaytee73 said:

In addition to my comment above 5 days ago - I wish to further reply to Hi flyers video above with 2  questions

I have most of the Orbx TE - PD or XP and asked the question - " who needs 2020" 

because - as very OLD simmer - by age and practice - I have watched the technical Achievements

grow in actual Flying experiences - and the ground I am flying over - in all the aircraft we want and 

I am impressed.      Just take a look at this Forum's section on downloaded screenshots.

 

As a person involved for a long time in computer graphics - I have also watched the growth of colour

and resolution - not only in Flight Sims but in the general computer flat screen "age". 

Some years ago - I dabbled in the PC - VR scene making videos for the Realty business's "walk arounds"

 

I have noticed a growing community in the Flight VR forums - few in Orbyx - but more on here. I have only tried a controller

for the PS4 game machine - but my X Box doesn't have one - and I ask why not?   Is it the resolution - colour - i.e.

the 2 items that don't impress me on the PS4.- or is MS waiting for something else

 

Although it probably might not occur before I fall from the tree - I see the future in this type of simm - that is -

to replace my Track IR - with VR - once they can give me a picture approaching  my current 4 K HDR10 - 43" monitor -

(the latest are 8K) - at around 4000' AGL.

 

So I would ask you V/Reality simmers - how does the TE scenery from Orbx perform on your latest VR controllers ?? - and why the Samsung

controller  - endorsed by MS - is not very popular and selling at Half price in recent months - despite it having a resolution spec. - ahead of other current units

 

OK - what can I expect if I jump in now with a half price 2 K Samsung Odyssey - will my Orbx TE scenery be as good as the 43" flat screen - TrackIR - 

OR - should I wait for the next generation of VR flight simming - by VR -  and all the juicy  specifications in the video?????

 

Is this a long winded way of asking 'should I go for VR now or wait?' I'm not sure what you're actually asking. 

If that is what you're asking, I say why wait? Good things does not come to those who wait, they just miss out. If you have the cash, go for it. 

And no, the screen resolution won't match a monitor in any headset. But chances are good you won't care once you notice you actully sit INSIDE the cockpit an not in man cave staring at a screen. 

[HiFlyer 9,343]

On 12/10/2019 at 8:21 AM, jaytee73 said:

In addition to my comment above 5 days ago - I wish to further reply to Hi flyers video above with 2  questions

I have most of the Orbx TE - PD or XP and asked the question - " who needs 2020" 

because - as very OLD simmer - by age and practice - I have watched the technical Achievements

grow in actual Flying experiences - and the ground I am flying over - in all the aircraft we want and 

I am impressed.      Just take a look at this Forum's section on downloaded screenshots.

 

As a person involved for a long time in computer graphics - I have also watched the growth of colour

and resolution - not only in Flight Sims but in the general computer flat screen "age". 

Some years ago - I dabbled in the PC - VR scene making videos for the Realty business's "walk arounds"

 

I have noticed a growing community in the Flight VR forums - few in Orbyx - but more on here. I have only tried a controller

for the PS4 game machine - but my X Box doesn't have one - and I ask why not?   Is it the resolution - colour - i.e.

the 2 items that don't impress me on the PS4.- or is MS waiting for something else

 

Although it probably might not occur before I fall from the tree - I see the future in this type of simm - that is -

to replace my Track IR - with VR - once they can give me a picture approaching  my current 4 K HDR10 - 43" monitor -

(the latest are 8K) - at around 4000' AGL.

 

So I would ask you V/Reality simmers - how does the TE scenery from Orbx perform on your latest VR controllers ?? - and why the Samsung

controller  - endorsed by MS - is not very popular and selling at Half price in recent months - despite it having a resolution spec. - ahead of other current units

 

OK - what can I expect if I jump in now with a half price 2 K Samsung Odyssey - will my Orbx TE scenery be as good as the 43" flat screen - TrackIR - 

OR - should I wait for the next generation of VR flight simming - by VR -  and all the juicy  specifications in the video?????

 

The fact is that our current simulators are slow!

And these legacy sims obviously aren't any faster in vr, which brings us to True Earth, which I consider quite acceptable in pancake mode..... and barely so in VR, despite the many people who find 20 FPS usable.

You could wait for the next generation of computers and headsets, but the truth is that most of our current civilian sims barely make the most efficient use of the hardware we have now and I myself doubt it will get much better any time soon, though X-Plane-Vulcan may give us a surprise.

As for Why Samsung is going so cheaply, one data point is that the Microsoft created WMR platform is not the most popular. The controllers are more clunky than many, and the software has quite a bit to go to match the ease-of-use of the competing Oculus ecosystem.

The two companies at the top are Oculus and the (original) Vive. (The Vive Cosmos is currently garbage).

Additionally, the Samsung headset, despite its very competitive resolution, vibrant colors, nice speakers etc, offers in practice only a rather pedestrian user experience, not so much due to the fairly excellent headset itself, as much as to the clunky WMR/Steam interface, the relative lack of purely native titles and the comparatively poor intuitiveness and friendliness in its software interface.

Plus the headset can be quite uncomfortable for some.

Essentially you'll spend a lot more time figuring out how to correctly use your Samsung to its best advantage through the combination of WMR and Steam settings, whereas the Oculus, like an apple product, tends to just work.

The holiday Oculus price drop and its release of several proprietary must-have titles, as well as the competition with the HP Reverb and the new Valve high-end headset probably also helped compel Sony to do anything it could to bolster its own sales, market share and relevance as a serious player in the market.

[jaytee73 132]

Thanks HighFlyer for the well thought out reply - and interpreting the reasons for asking - resolution is important

So its a tossup whether to go or not to go at this moment and  despite the obvious enjoyment most people on these forums seemingly enjoy

I will wait a while longer - and the reason is simply  the case of possible developments replacing the "legacy" sims

- and the statement forecasts in your video. I do actually foresee development of VR by Microsoft - and it will be in the X BOX hardware -

which will be with us around Sept - and despite what has been said - MS2020 will eventually use VR Simming - starting on the X box

Your Samsung comments give me some  satisfaction in that I like their products - and I cant see MS/Xbox too far away from VR - for the simple fact that

Sony  are already touting better VR versions for their PS5 - a spec almost identical to X Box  2

I was aware that Samsung used WMR via MS  - but not that it had to make use of Steam VR

[Anthracite 131]

On 12/12/2019 at 11:21 AM, jaytee73 said:

Thanks HighFlyer for the well thought out reply - and interpreting the reasons for asking - resolution is important

So its a tossup whether to go or not to go at this moment and  despite the obvious enjoyment most people on these forums seemingly enjoy

I will wait a while longer - and the reason is simply  the case of possible developments replacing the "legacy" sims

- and the statement forecasts in your video. I do actually foresee development of VR by Microsoft - and it will be in the X BOX hardware -

which will be with us around Sept - and despite what has been said - MS2020 will eventually use VR Simming - starting on the X box

Your Samsung comments give me some  satisfaction in that I like their products - and I cant see MS/Xbox too far away from VR - for the simple fact that

Sony  are already touting better VR versions for their PS5 - a spec almost identical to X Box  2

I was aware that Samsung used WMR via MS  - but not that it had to make use of Steam VR

Perhaps I can offer some further insight. I was an early adopter of VR, I still have my DK2 rattling around in storage. I have been waiting a long time to purchase a HMD that offers what I consider to be necessary improvements. I follow, religiously, improvements in display technology (miniLED, microLED, Quantum Dots etc), optics, rendering and processing - all so that I can gauge what will happen with future devices. VR is getting better and it has come leaps and bounds but I still don't think it is where I want it to be - where I can keep a unit for as long as I keep my other peripherals and devices. I like the things I buy to last at least 5 years, my GPU and other hardware, my display, my controllers. VR is not yet at a state where the next improvement won't leave you feeling left out or wishing you had waited before spending £500-1000. That isn't to say that you won't get enjoyment from current devices - they are very good and you won't want to go back to 2d - but you'll also be left thinking of the future because of the drawbacks compared to conventional display technology.

We're almost there, so unless you don't mind spending twice, I recommend waiting. Foveated Rendering and Eye Tracking is something I consider necessary. We are still using 2D rendering techniques and transforming them into the correct format by use of shaders, rendering a scene twice at huge cost to performance. Performance is extremely important, way more important than resolution. It's all very well getting really nice big screens and high resolution - but if you're running at anything less than 70fps you're going to feel it. We experience life without "low fps", we don't get judder and frame time drops and stuttering in real life. I have a 144hz monitor and the difference between 60 and 144 is massive. It's really difficult to step back from 144hz because of how smooth it is. Even with all the various techniques employed by the HMD and drivers, Asynchronous Timewarp among others. You notice the difference and it pulls you out of the experience. 

Most people - in response to the low fps - lower the graphics, which is why I say that performance is more important than resolution. Because ultimately you need performance to drive the resolution. That's where eye tracking and foveated rendering is going to make a revolution among VR headsets. Whether you're happy with 70, 90 or 120hz, more performance is going to give you the increase in visuals that make you satisfied with your device. Foveated Rendering will respond to where you're looking and render that area (the foveal region) in high detail, while using far less resources on your periphery. Anything from 10-30% has been quoted as the potential performance improvement. 

In regards to your 4k monitors and the visual clarity - a lot of people here and elsewhere suggest that it is not possible to achieve that clarity when you have displays mounted an inch from your face and then magnified. This is not accurate. Ignoring the improvements in display technology (particularly microLED) that offer incredible improvements to pixel density, the real issue is of pixel density per degree of your field of view. The human eye with 20/20 vision is capable of resolving ~60pixels per degree (ppd). You certainly need more pixels - but the resolution is not the defining factor, it is the pixel density of the display (or multiple displays) that is important. While a higher resolution will offer more detail to the objects in a rendered scene, even a scene with low resolution will look good on a display with a high pixel density. Such a device (with 60ppd within the foveal region) exists today, and is compatible with steam vr - if you're willing to spend $6000. It doesn't achieve this by simply sticking 8k resolution screens in the device - to quote their website: 

"Combining two 1920 x 1080 low persistence micro-OLEDs and two 1440 x 1600 low persistence AMOLEDs."

Varjo VR-2

If you view that website there are some great screenshots that demonstrate the difference between their display and the Vive Pro.

If you have any more questions I'd be happy to try and answer them but my advice is to wait, miniLED devices have been released at the tail end of this year (with displays like the Asus ProArt) - more and better are coming next year. Innolux has some fantastic panels coming next year, for example. Samsung has just invested billions on turning one of its plants into a microLED display plant (or what it has coined QD-OLED). Larger devices are difficult to create economically but smaller ones that can go inside HMDs? These are almost economical now. I'd wait at least a year, possibly two. 

There's no rush. 

~A

[jaytee73 132]

welcome anthracite

 

How strange - such wise words coming from a piece of coal - and many thanks -

for the welcome news on the Samsung front - Odyssey X will be soon I think - to go with the new X Box

and MS2020 - then I Might just give it a go - if my eyes don't deteriorate any further😎

[Anthracite 131]

19 hours ago, jaytee73 said:

welcome anthracite

 

How strange - such wise words coming from a piece of coal - and many thanks -

for the welcome news on the Samsung front - Odyssey X will be soon I think - to go with the new X Box

and MS2020 - then I Might just give it a go - if my eyes don't deteriorate any further😎

Fortunately, Facebook/Oculus is working on Varifocal lenses that should mean, provided you aren't blind/single eye sighted, you can still enjoy the experience as much as everyone with good eyesight. Check out this video:
 

 

[whitav8 98]

@jaytee73,

      If you can afford (or already have ) a 5Ghz 9X00K CPU with 3600Mhz RAM and a 2080X GPU ($2000USD or so), then you will be quite satisfied, clarity wise, NOW with either an HP Reverb or the Valve Index. I have the Reverb (2K per eye ), and it truly seems like a monitor in that I can finally ( I also had DK2 then Odyssey+ )  see all EFIS instruments clearly - even the first officer's from the captain's side in a Q400 or 777. The trees, buildings and aircraft outside - either at taxi or flying very low -  have sharp edges as well. Prepar3D is a sluggish performer frametime-wise but Aerofly FS2 has the performance needed for VR - even if is does not yet have the sim systems like weather and ATC.

      You can wait a few years as the HMD systems go 4K then 8K per eye (effectively with foveated rendering or equivalent ) - or you could jump in now so that you could really be able to evaluate carefully the improvements that follow - and simply enjoy being inside the cockpit in stereo depth with the correctly scaled real world around you - not in front of you on a screen where the runway is measured in inches not meters. Seeing the runway on base turning to final is a completely natural thing in VR while difficult on the flat screen at any resolution. Flying in formation with an AV-8 or F-18  (in DCS or CAP2) seems so real in VR - I can stare at a 45 degree angle and line up on Sniper leader's wingtip just a few feet away. Jetting down the Grand Canyon just over the Colorado river at 350 knots while looking way up at the rim is amazing.

   The choice is yours!