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yanfeng12342000

To those who think VR is puny

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It's popularity is rising and more vr only games are getting made.  Simulation type games (flight, driving etc) are perfect for vr

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Definitely not puny, and definitely significant for future of flight simulation. Just currently underbaked and a wonky kludge for simulating real world pilotage. And definitely currently unsuitable for real world pilots using simulation to maintain skills. 

Edited by yurei
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I agree the current crop needs more powerful hardware and/or optimization. Demo of various products for Flight Training environment left much to be desired with readability of the avionics in the cockpit and smoothness of the experience. However, one device provided a fairly good use of the technology. A vendor used a Hololens 2 to provide a procedures trainer for checklist practice. The fidelity of the avionics systems were rudimentary so practicing setting up flight displays or programing flight management systems was non existent. I am not even sure if a Hololens could handle a Pro Line Fusion cockpit. However, for basic switch flipping, it was a fairly good demo. 

My main issue with the Hololens was in a training environment it was way to fragile. Pilot's are not know to be gentle with technology. We would need to bungee them from the ceiling to keep them from hitting the floor. 

Supposedly, Apple is working on a new device targeting VR/AR devices that is going to provide a Retina level of quality and smoothness to devices. This and taptic like devices to let you know when you contact a surface. The vendor who spoke of this was pretty enthused saying the trainee would feel the switch unlike the current generation of procedure trainers where pilots are flipping switches on touch screen monitors. 

It is kind of amusing as I remember training on cardboard cutouts. To think pilots will enter a empty room with two VR devices linked together... 

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Ken

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1 hour ago, KenG said:

It is kind of amusing as I remember training on cardboard cutouts. To think pilots will enter a empty room with two VR devices linked together... 

Mixed reality is surely where we must be for pro level training. VR without hardware cockpit is largely incapable of training muscle memory to be recalled in an actual aircraft emergency.

Do you have a link to the Hololens demo? Always felt like this was going to be very important for flight training and simulation.

Edited by yurei

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2 minutes ago, yurei said:

VR without hardware cockpit is completely unable to train muscle memory.

Not sure about that one. If the virtual cockpit has the correct size, wouldn't the motion to e.g. reach a certain switch on the overhead panel be the same as in the real aircraft? 

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1 minute ago, FDEdev said:

Not sure about that one. If the virtual cockpit has the correct size, wouldn't the motion to e.g. reach a certain switch on the overhead panel be the same as in the real aircraft? 

That would surely be key item. There is some software available now that allows "calibrating" the VR environment to the meatworld environment but not sure how accurate that is or even has been developed beyond a prototype.

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There's no doubt that VR is not even comparable to 2D screens with regard to being closer to the real essence and sensations of flight (unless you're someone who considers writing down ATC instructions and tuning VORs the real essence of flight 😆 ).

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"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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When flying gliders most of the time you are looking out the windows for traffic clouds, com towers on a ridge. Instruments are for reference. I'd imaging that flying something like a 172 that's about the same. A GA circuit is about the same as a gliding circuit. Downwind, base leg, final. If this is the kind of flying you do then I know of no other way to get the level of immersion and realism provided by VR. I admit I have to lean slightly forward to see instruments clearly. And I do have to lower autogen setting but with the soft image of the Samsung Odyssey+ it make no difference. Granted if you fly tubeliners and you want to follow real world procedures to the letter. It's probably pretty tricky to do that. But If you just want to load a short company route and fly it by hand in the NGXu or the Q400 its awesome and I believe it gives a much more realistic sense of actually being in and flying the real aircraft. I am sure it will get much much better. Perhaps even as soon as next year. But as far as this simmer is concerned its there and there is no going back.

Edited by Avidean
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My apologies for once more bringing out the boi-s with my "non-essence" flightsim and apparently, oh so powerful, opinions about my VR flying. 

Also my apologies for having 200+ hours in a cockpit with IFR pilots and knowing in a detailed fashion (even assisting with radios, etc.) what they do and how they do it.

Finally, my apologies from all the flightsimmers like me who are usually quiet about how they use the software because of the boi-s.

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"In VR it's a lot better"

"You guys were right, VR definitely makes a difference"

"There were a couple of times I was so immersed that it looked real"

"As a procedures trainer I think it would be awesome [...] A hundred percent better than the first time I tried it" (with trackIR)

"Flying formation, flying more smoothly than before, it was a lot better in this one"

Quotes from a YT video of C.W. Lemoine, real F/A-18 pilot, playing DCS with an Oculus Rift CV1. But what does he know about real piloting. 😆

Let's bring VR to MFS.

 

 

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"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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Dear Asobo,

Penning this note at this time of year brings back pleasant memories of holiday seasons long ago and letters to an almost omnipotent entity known for his generosity to children. 

It seems a lot of little boi-s are imploring, entreating, and even threatening you about the feature set in your upcoming production. Rest assured, the ultimate materialization of whatever suggestions I make will not affect my purchase or support for your endeavor. My requests are written here as alternative to the high volume requests to which you might be accustomed.

Before stating my suggestions, thanks for the consideration for cockpit builders and hardware controllers. For many, many community members (most of whom prefer not to argue with the boi-s), this is an important part of their product experience and could be a significant factor in any purchase decision.

Big fan here of your early work with Hololens and the city walk around experiences. I got my first headset not long after that in anticipation of a robust Microsoft Hololens platform explosion. Mixed reality is very much a part of the future and know you have the experience and knowledge to make it work.

I'm on my second headset now. However, it is not very satisfying and, more importantly, does not contribute to a very accurate simulation of what real world pilots do in the cockpit. I find myself using it on a very small percentage of my flights because of it's narrow application and imperfect implementation. So my suggestions and affirmations:

- Don't forget about IFR rules. I'm not talking about just flying by instruments in a lonely VR world. Build a robust ATC feature and remember that most real world pilots are IFR certified and fly IFR rules in almost all of their day to day activities. The VFR pilots who use your product will not notice this omission but the vast majority of real world flights and the vast majority of real world pilots (the essence of simulation to try and match the real world acivity) are under IFR rules.

- Don't shortcut your VR implementation. I know what is possible with VR in this genre and I know where it is sorely lacking. Your comments in the feature discovery series are very heartening. Do it right and provide the technology necessary to emulate what real world pilots do in the cockpit, flying in the real world. Back to my first suggestion: don't forget about IFR rules. It is very admirable and important that your team has been taking real world flying lessons. Do the same with real world IFR pilots and use this as a guide for your VR implementation. Better to make the implementation as good as it can be instead of making it as expediate as possible.

- Lastly, be wary of the rowdy feedback from the boi-s. Most of them have no real world experience in an airplane and even less of them have direct experience with IFR rules. You seem committed to make your production accessible to the less experienced, don't forget about those with the most experience: current/former real world IFR pilots and those of us who sim to emulate real world flight from the airplane cockpit. The boi-s are loud but their affections are fragile and fickle.

I know you must be very busy with the boi-s over at the reddit sandbox, but hopefully you find time to return here. Thanks for letting me ramble on.

 

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21 hours ago, yurei said:

Mixed reality is surely where we must be for pro level training. VR without hardware cockpit is largely incapable of training muscle memory to be recalled in an actual aircraft emergency.

Do you have a link to the Hololens demo? Always felt like this was going to be very important for flight training and simulation.

 

There is no link, this was a demonstration that I attended in person. Companies trying to sell hardware and software to the company I work for to use in real world flight training. 

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Ken

Join Elite Air Taxi a free VA http://www.flyelite.net

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