Kobe Bryant killed in helicopter crash

[psolk 3,040]

What took me is when the Sheriff and LAPD noted that even their choppers were grounded due to conditions...  With that being said they were descending at 4K FPM at the time of the crash apparently which could indicate some sort of mechanical.  We just don't know but the fact local law enforcement choppers were grounded due to conditions and this PIC chose to fly leads to a lot of questions if nothing else.

 

[psolk 3,040]

9 hours ago, FDEdev said:

Too low for what? A long list with 100% speculation and not a single important fact. Don't know how often you have flown a helo in bad weather, but that's one of the great advantages of a helicopter, if weather gets really bad you simply slow down. If it gets worse, you land. 

IMO definitely the wrong time to blame the pilot.

Too low for ATC who radioed them and told them they were too low for flight following...   

[CFIJose 5,485]

22 minutes ago, cmpbellsjc said:

Perhaps he had a heart attack or died unexpectedly, it’s happened and there wasn’t a copilot on board.

Highly unlikely, but possible. We can only deduce that the "go no go" decision was a complex one. Time pressure, celebrity pressure, company pressure, ego or over confidence kicked in and the intelligent decision to say NO, not today did NOT happen. 

This will happen again because not enough importance is put on the pressure that Pilots face daily to get the job done. They will take the risk even if it kills them. One reporter said on TV that they still don't know if this was weather related. They will eventually blame it on Pilot Error & disorientation which led to the chopper crashing into the mountain, but they will never explain why?

[FDEdev 955]

2 hours ago, psolk said:

Too low for ATC who radioed them and told them they were too low for flight following...   

I know, but flying below radar coverage is no reason for a crash, that's why I was asking.

2 hours ago, DJJose said:

This will happen again because not enough importance is put on the pressure that Pilots face daily to get the job done. 

Of course it will happen again, but not only due to pressure, but simply due to some pilot egos.

[MartinRex007 390]

One possibility after receiving the special VFR clearance might be the pilot in the fog clipped a high power line that sent the copter out of control. They did mention there was a large debris field which would imply a partial break-up in flight? Although this scenario would be pretty easy to determine, i.e., were there any high power lines in the area. We had a guy out here sometime ago that clipped a high power line in a R-44 and went down with a total lost. 

R.I.P. Kobe so sad for all on-board and the fans and loved ones left behind! 

Edited January 28, 2020 by MartinRex007

[psolk 3,040]

5 hours ago, MartinRex007 said:

One possibility after receiving the special VFR clearance might be the pilot in the fog clipped a high power line that sent the copter out of control. They did mention there was a large debris field which would imply a partial break-up in flight? Although this scenario would be pretty easy to determine, i.e., were there any high power lines in the area. We had a guy out here sometime ago that clipped a high power line in a R-44 and went down with a total lost. 

R.I.P. Kobe so sad for all on-board and the fans and loved ones left behind! 

Again, unlikely or they probably would have indicated by now as it would have been pretty easy to determine if it hit something on the way down.  At this point we know they had special VFR clearance but were told multiple times they were too low for flight following.  Conditions and visibility were such that all local law enforcement choppers were grounded. 

PIC has the end say as to whether or not they fly.    Regardless of the speculation about what "may" have ultimately brought them down the ultimate question is why did they ever go up??? 

[scott967 62]

17 hours ago, psolk said:

What took me is when the Sheriff and LAPD noted that even their choppers were grounded due to conditions...  With that being said they were descending at 4K FPM at the time of the crash apparently which could indicate some sort of mechanical.  We just don't know but the fact local law enforcement choppers were grounded due to conditions and this PIC chose to fly leads to a lot of questions if nothing else.

 

Well, I assume the mission of LAPD and LACSD helos involves a lot of monitoring what is going on on the ground, not transiting from point A to point B, so I don't see this as all that relevant.

 

scott s.

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[scott967 62]

6 hours ago, psolk said:

Again, unlikely or they probably would have indicated by now as it would have been pretty easy to determine if it hit something on the way down.  At this point we know they had special VFR clearance but were told multiple times they were too low for flight following.  Conditions and visibility were such that all local law enforcement choppers were grounded. 

PIC has the end say as to whether or not they fly.    Regardless of the speculation about what "may" have ultimately brought them down the ultimate question is why did they ever go up??? 

AFAIK, the special VFR clearance was for the time the AC was transiting the KBUR Class C airspace SFC/48.  The flight following would be under VFR after exiting the Class C to the west of KVNY airport.

 

scott s.

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[Alan_A 1,650]

Couple of things.  If the data reported here are accurate, spatial disorientation is a possibility - the aircraft is said to have climbed 875 feet in 36 seconds, then in the next minute turned from south-southwest to south-southeast to east, then descended 350 feet in six seconds, at which point radar information ends. 

Something else that struck me, looking at the radar track and listening to the comms, that I don't think has been mentioned anywhere - before proceeding west, the aircraft holds for 10-15 minutes just east of Hollywood Burbank at the controllers' request so they can handle traffic at Burbank and a string of departures out of Van Nuys.  I'd want to know more about what schedule the helo was trying to keep, and whether the delay might have motivated one or more passengers to press the pilot to make up time or avoid further delays... or whether the pilot might have felt that sort of pressure internally.

Obviously it's early and there's a lot that needs to be investigated... and obviously all of this is speculative... but those are a couple of factors I'd be interested in exploring.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Alan_A

[MartinRex007 390]

Weather and get-their-itis, has claimed the lives of many!

[scott967 62]

I've PAXed many times OXR-LAX and back on commuter AC and that general route is common coming into OXR (more or less aligned with CMA where the incident AC was headed).  At the west end of SF valley the terrain rises and you have two passes heading into Ventura Cty, which the 118 and 101 freeways follow.  It looks like the helo was scud running to maintain VFR in the SF valley, but as it followed the 101 route was running out of room due to the terrain rise and attempted to do a 180 to get out of clouds, but was unable to complete the maneuver.  NTSB says the AC was intact at impact so unlikely due to structural failure.  The possibility exists of engine failure and failure to auto-rotate (I assume this helo has that capability) for some reason, but pilot disorientation or incapacitation leading to improper control inputs and loss of control is also a possibility.  At any rate, the decision to continue flying west with rising terrain and low ceiling in VFR can be questioned regardless of actual reason the AC crashed.

 

scott s.

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[MartinRex007 390]

The NTSB gave a press release the other day which I find confusing, she mentioned that the AC was descending at 2,000 fpm right before impact, and it was mentioned the AC missed clearing the hill by only 20-30ft. Hard to imagine in those foggy condition you would want to descend at that high rate? She also mentioned they (NTSB) have recommended mandatory TAWS to the FAA be installed on copters other than just medical and both times the FAA refused. Odd the NTSB would publicly call out the FAA, but one can only imagine what the out come might of been if Kobe's copter would of had a TAWS installed. Official report should be out 12 to 18 months she stated, and a brief sheet out this Friday.

Cheers

Martin 

[Alan_A 1,650]

Conflict between the NTSB and the FAA is actually pretty common - the NTSB doesn't have enforcement authority, it only makes recommendations, and the board sometimes asks for more or different remedies than the FAA is willing to agree to.

The 2,000 fpm descent right at the end is consistent with the numbers cited in the Washington Post article I linked to in my post above.  It comes after a rapid ascent and a 180-degree-plus change in direction.  So it could fit with either spatial disorientation/loss of control, or, as @scott967 suggests, an attempt to exit a bad terrain/visibility situation that the pilot wasn't able to complete.

[Orlaam 306]

It certainly sounds like he realized the visibility was deteriorating, whereby it might have been slightly better earlier in the route.  The videos from the ground seem to suggest this.  He was largely away from any mountains until he passed Van Nuys and Calabasas above the 101.  For some reason he turned back, and appeared to enter a canyon while climbing.  I believe he became disoriented and lost control, resulting in the eventual crash.  I think knowing it was IMC and the fact that he turned around for no apparent reason suggests he was in over his head at that point.  The likelihood of a mechanical issue or pilot medical problem would be too coincidental.   It has been said he did have ForeFlight, but we don't know if he was using it or if it played any role in his decision-making.

[Dave_YVR 973]

 Don't confuse fog and low ceilings, it's commonly misused (the media sure seems to have idea about the difference). Taws may have helped if it was installed but it also may have just added to the workload and been a distraction during an incredibly demanding time when his eyes were needed out the windows to fly the aircraft. Mistakes when scud running often don't turn out well.