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pelgrin21

need some help on better landings for king air

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hello all i been flying the flight 1 super king air 200v2 is a fine aircraft i have a problem when iim moments from landing i float a lot i end up landing halfway on the runway today i had full flaps and doing 107 knots i thought it was one of my best landings when i got about 50 feet from the runway the plane pitched up and i ended up landing halfway on the runway again but i did kill the throttle maybe that was my mistake.. do i supposed to have some throttle to keep the momentum of the plane going? any experts on the king air are welcome to keep some pointers thanks.

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Posted (edited)

All of the clips in this series are worth a look, but this one specifically is useful for landings. Note that this is not in a 200 model but generally speaking you can tweak the techniques for most similar variants of aeroplanes and they'll still apply and that includes the King Air.

All landings start with a good approach, so as ever the trick is that there is no trick; you have the speed stable in good time and the rate of descent keeping you heading for the aim point without having to battle with the yoke. If you've got that right, all you have to do is is chop the throttle as you come over the fence and flare it, this is especially true for gas turbines because unlike with normally-aspirated engines they suffer from lag on throttle inputs. There's a good guide to speed and config in this video:

 

Edited by Chock
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Alan Bradbury

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Sweet thanks I appreciate that Tom Clemens has a king air book on Amazon too.i will try better landings later on today 

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11 hours ago, pelgrin21 said:

 the plane pitched up and i ended up landing halfway on the runway again..

Do you think that you might have subconsciously begun to flare, thus arresting any descent and ending up with the plane floating down the runway, or perhaps ground effect cushioned the rate of descent?

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Mark Robinson

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1 hour ago, HighBypass said:

Do you think that you might have subconsciously begun to flare, thus arresting any descent and ending up with the plane floating down the runway, or perhaps ground effect cushioned the rate of descent?

Very common during the learning curve.  Note the approach and landing at about 10:30 into the video.  Note that with power reduction he continues his rate of descent through the ground effects and only slightly flares well after you see the descent rate lessen due to ground effects.

I fly the Realair Turbine Duke V2 (TDv2) a lot and find that like most other aircraft coming in at higher landing speeds (90 knots or higher), in simulators they tend to float unless you fly them onto the runway so to speak.  Perhaps the ground effects are a bit exaggerated.  Then there is the lag that Chock referred to in turbines.

Edited by fppilot

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Depending on your graphics settings and the detail of the runway surface, you may be able to use the technique I was taught for when to flare (this is in the real world). What I was told is that you stay on the aim point of the runway and you keep right on it all the way in until you can make out surface details (i.e. for a grass airstrip, that would be the moment it stops being a big mass of green and you begin to perceive actual grass detail). 

At this point, you look up the field and begin flaring, keeping your eyes on the end of the field to help you maintain the centreline. You can (in the real thing, or with multiple monitors/track IR etc), use peripheral vision to judge the touchdown and flare, but basically if the thing is dropping, you bring the stick/yoke back a bit more, then if it drops some more, you bring the controls back a bit more, and so on.

There is a temptation to start flaring too early when you are driving right at the ground and that's what can often mess up a decent approach. So keep that aim point right in the middle of the windscreen. Bear in mind that the PAPI/VASI lights for most runways are a 'good average' setting which will work for most aeroplanes but their function is  based on how high up you are in the cockpit, which obviously varies for different aeroplanes, so they are not a guarantee that every type will be coming in perfect.

What you cannot go wrong with however, is the runway markings themselves: just past the piano keys are two white markers, which are the touchdown point and just past those are six white markers arranged in a sort of chequered pattern, which is the visual aim point. So if you drive right at the visual aim point and keep right on it until it is time to flare and you have your speed under control and ready to bleed off to a suitable touchdown speed from the act of flaring, then it should all go to plan.

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Alan Bradbury

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Floating means too much airspeed.

There are three keys to consistently good landings:

1. Airspeed control.

2. Airspeed control. 

3. Airspeed control. 

Find out what the correct landing speed is and nail that speed. Not 10 knots faster, not 5 knots faster, but exactly that speed. Be an airspeed fanatic. Also, remember that the correct approach and landing speeds vary with weight. If you're flying an empty airplane at the correct speed for an airplane at maximum gross weight, you're going too fast and you're going to float. So you need to know the landing weight of the aircraft as well, if you're really going to be precise.

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6 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

Floating means too much airspeed.

There are three keys to consistently good landings:

1. Airspeed control.

2. Airspeed control. 

3. Airspeed control. 

Find out what the correct landing speed is and nail that speed. Not 10 knots faster, not 5 knots faster, but exactly that speed. Be an airspeed fanatic. Also, remember that the correct approach and landing speeds vary with weight. If you're flying an empty airplane at the correct speed for an airplane at maximum gross weight, you're going too fast and you're going to float. So you need to know the landing weight of the aircraft as well, if you're really going to be precise.

You forgot the most important one.

4.Airspeed control

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Glad no one mentioned hitting the centreline of the runway....  oops!:blush: Something I never quite get right..:wacko:


Mark Robinson

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Author of FLIGHT: A near-future short story (ebook available on amazon)

I made the baby cry - A2A Simulations L-049 Constellation

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107 KIAS VREF even with a base BE20 is a little hot. Base airplane without the Raisbeck magic at 12,500 lbs you are looking at 103 KIAS. 12,000 is 102 KIAS, 11,000 is 99 KIAS, 10,000 is 96 KIAS, and 9,000 pounds is 93 KIAS.

Now if you read the front of the F1 manual it talks about a 1984 King Air 200 with the Raisbeck EPIC package. The EPIC package includes the enhanced leading edge wings which replaces the center section wings with a more streamlined leading edge. This further reduces stall speed as well as take-off and landing speeds. 

The approach speeds from the Raisbeck AFM Supplement are:

  • Weight     100% Flaps    0% Flaps
  • 12,500     97 KIAS          122 KAIS
  • 12,000     95 KIAS          119 KIAS
  • 11,000     90 KIAS          114 KIAS
  • 10,000     85 KIAS          109 KIAS
  • 9,000      80 KIAS           103 KIAS

So first thing I would recommend is slowing down. The King Air has a T-tail design that makes it pitch sensitive. Additional speed in the flare is just going to make things harder when it comes time to try and put the airplane onto the runway. She will float! For the approach 120 to 140 KIAS will be fine then around decision altitude for an ILS approach (200' AGL) which is just about when the rabbit lights of an ALFS2 start to disappear under the nose start a slow reduction in torque so as to cross the threshold at 50' AGL and on the above approach speeds. As you cross the threshold continue to reduce power, in a perfect scenario you will touch down just past the 1,000' markers (captain's bars) with the power levers just coming to idle and about 10 KIAS below VAPP. 

Now realise you have a lot of things working against you in a desktop simulation. First of which is the quality of your controllers. Most controllers are in fact built cheaply and use low quality potentiometers. You simply do not have the fine control necessary to really control this airplane in a flare. The second major thing you have is limited visibility. In the real airplane the pilot's use their peripheral vision to help judge the distance above the runway. (There is a reason real simulators are built with a big screen that wraps around the front of the cockpit!) Staring out the front window does little to help you. Finally, you are a slave to fps. Lower fps, and let's face it the F1 King Air is a fps hog, decreases the amount of time you can see something happening and input a correction. (Again there is a reason the FAA under Part 60 states 60hz minimum.) A stutter during short final and forget about salvaging a good landing. 

Try the above speeds, but bottom line is you may be about as good as it can get with your hardware. You may have to just accept a firmer landing to put her in the touchdown zone. As an Instructor I prefer someone land in the touchdown zone and a little firm (300 to 400 fpm) as opposed to try and grease it and land halfway down the runway.

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Ken

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1 hour ago, Ron Attwood said:

You forgot the most important one.

4.Airspeed control

That one is indeed the key!

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Thanks. That was so cool!


Troy Kemp

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6 hours ago, Ron Attwood said:

You forgot the most important one.

Gear Down :-)

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On 5/7/2020 at 4:05 PM, mtr75 said:

Floating means too much airspeed.

There are three keys to consistently good landings:

1. Airspeed control.

2. Airspeed control. 

3. Airspeed control. 

Find out what the correct landing speed is and nail that speed. Not 10 knots faster, not 5 knots faster, but exactly that speed. Be an airspeed fanatic. Also, remember that the correct approach and landing speeds vary with weight. If you're flying an empty airplane at the correct speed for an airplane at maximum gross weight, you're going too fast and you're going to float. So you need to know the landing weight of the aircraft as well, if you're really going to be precise.

How do I find out the correct landng speed for an aircraft without any dokumnetation?

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13 minutes ago, jonny said:

How do I find out the correct landng speed for an aircraft without any dokumnetation?

Use the google machine. You might not be able to find the exact same model/year, I don't know the King Air, but you should be able to get close. Just google "King Air POH". Should get you started. 

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