Aircraft addon (payware)

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

6 minutes ago, Little Jenny said:

Funny, I jumped in the Mooney and was able to figure it out without a 50 page manual.  Sure, I went and found some further information (oh and even found Caranedo's INCLUDED documentation) later on.  Perhaps this is my age showing, but the days of indepth software manuals of any kind are long gone!  This isn't 1991.  Google is your friend. 😉

 

The only hard bit for a new pilot is learning to work the Garmin but that is not really something Carenado are responsible to teach people.

[KenG 492]

5 minutes ago, Chock said:

Not quite true. One of the few things you actually cannot copyright, is the instructions on how to safely operate a machine, and it should be obvious why this is the view of law on the matter. Check the international laws of copyright if you don't think this is the case.

Try again. Yes AFM can be copyrighted are can also be further restricted by other laws.

 

[HighBypass 2,339]

10 minutes ago, KenG said:

Typical response, just go to the internet and steal copyrighted material.

Ken, I know what you're getting at, but perhaps the manuals should not be available to be displayed on a computer screen? I mean, if I search google and every page of the manual appears in google images then how am I stealing it? (I've not even checked to see if that is the case).  If I was to click on a link which said "Mooney manuals download crack" then that would indeed be classed as stealing.

Way back, if a public library had a copy of the manual, one could presumably sit down and copy it by writing it down on a notepad, or maybe photographing the pages??

 

[ryanbatc 12,857]

14 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

 

The only hard bit for a new pilot is learning to work the Garmin but that is not really something Carenado are responsible to teach people.

You Tube - plenty of helpful tutorials for newcomers @oeker

Check out this guy's videos - he does an excellent job - he's also a current RW pilot

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOTbYtdmGZfqxq0D0lsrYeQ/videos

Edited January 22, 2021 by ryanbatcund

[Chock 17,769]

5 minutes ago, KenG said:

Try again. Yes AFM can be copyrighted are can also be further restricted by other laws.

Nope, you try again, and this time, actually read what I wrote.

I did not state a manual cannot be copyrighted, I said you cannot copyright the instructions on how to safely operate a machine. Therefore you can replicate the information therein which relates to safe operation without breaking copyright so long as you are not reproducing the document's individual design format, visual appearance etc.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Chock

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

4 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

 

Way back, if a public library had a copy of the manual, one could presumably sit down and copy it by writing it down on a notepad, or maybe photographing the pages??

 

There are fair use provisions and exceptions for education and research but generally you cannot copy an entire work - though no one is going to bother trying to enforce that if you copied it by hand into a notebook.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Glenn Fitzpatrick

[ryanbatc 12,857]

23 minutes ago, KenG said:

Typical response, just go to the internet and steal copyrighted material.

I never get most of the AVSIM community who stands stalwart against software piracy while in the same breath encouraging members to steal manuals from aircraft manufactures. 

Downloading copyrighted aircraft manuals is just as illegal as pirating software. If you want the manual then go to Mooney, establish a technical publication account, and purchase the manual legally.

Ken - you're a great guy, and I respect a lot of what you say and realize you have tons of RW aviation experience.  But this is a stretch to accuse another member, who also has a lot of helpful posts, of piracy of a POH/AFM.  I think the suggestion to find a manual online is reasonable.  A user may have to read it on Scribble or one of those sites where you cannot download it - but at least the info will be there.

For example, I googled "Beechcraft Musketeer Manual" (the plane I fly) and the first two results from Google are direct links to the POH.  They also say copyright 1994.  If the site hosting the file doesn't have it protected that's on them.

Edited January 22, 2021 by ryanbatcund

[Nyxx 6,993]

Yet another well thought out topic^^

[Kilo60 660]

1 hour ago, DJJose said:

You don't need manual to fly the Carenado Mooney. It's the easiest airplane you will ever fly on this sim. That's off course, if you know what you are doing.

Ditto all the gauges are right there on the screen now in third person view!

 

Never even have to fly from inside the cockpit anymore!!!

[Ricardo41 5,954]

2 hours ago, oeker said:

Carenado Mooney.

Expected to find a 50 page manual  (Mooney).... Well .. how on earth can you expect to operate this aircraft correctly without documentation. The answer is obvious - it is not designed for a deep study. - just jump in and add power.

You must be new to these forums......

[KenG 492]

 

1 hour ago, Chock said:

Nope, you try again, and this time, actually read what I wrote.

I did not state a manual cannot be copyrighted, I said you cannot copyright the instructions on how to safely operate a machine. Therefore you can replicate the information therein without breaking copyright so long as you are not reproducing the document.

I did read what you wrote and guess what, operating instructions are in section 4 which is covered by the copyright on the manual. I work daly in the aviation training business as an instructor for a major international flight training corporation to include the development of courseware. When my company produces courseware all of the material is officially licensed from the manufacture. Thus our versions of the instructions carry a derivative copyright. We cannot just copy a checklist from the manufacture and release it as our own without paying license fees.

The exact scope of this is up to courts to decide when you crossed the line of fair use and into copyright infringement. However, most courts would disagree with placing a .PDF copy of the entire manual online for all to download as fair use. Again airplane manuals are under a different set of regulations then say the placard instructions on the side of a Hobart GPU.

 

1 hour ago, ryanbatcund said:

Ken - you're a great guy, and I respect a lot of what you say and realize you have tons of RW aviation experience.  But this is a stretch to accuse another member, who also has a lot of helpful posts, of piracy of a POH/AFM.  I think the suggestion to find a manual online is reasonable.  A user may have to read it on Scribble or one of those sites where you cannot download it - but at least the info will be there.

Have you ever lost a book from a library?  Did you notice that the book usually cost a lot more than what you could purchase it from Amazon? That is because the public library pays for a copy of the book with a license to lend the book. Many of these websites where they collect and distribute PDFs are not getting permission from the Copyright holder for public dissemination of their products. Generally they are also not a free public service, but also charge people a fee to access said service.

The last time I was a member of Sribd they had multiple copies of Pilot Training Manuals illegally uploaded to their service. I know the company who produced said manuals and they would not allow their products outside the control of their company. As a paid subscriber I could also download the manual to keep on my drive forever.

Go to your local library or a legitimate digital library, OK I will give you that one. However, most aviation technical manuals are not in library collections, again because of these other laws I alluded to. 

 

1 hour ago, HighBypass said:

Ken, I know what you're getting at, but perhaps the manuals should not be available to be displayed on a computer screen? I mean, if I search google and every page of the manual appears in google images then how am I stealing it? (I've not even checked to see if that is the case).  If I was to click on a link which said "Mooney manuals download crack" then that would indeed be classed as stealing.

Way back, if a public library had a copy of the manual, one could presumably sit down and copy it by writing it down on a notepad, or maybe photographing the pages??

 

 You have a point he said information as opposed to POH or AFM. Technically, you could go to the Mooney Owners forum and find lots of information that would not be considered copyright infringement. However, the line get blurry with sites like SmartCockpit who break up sections of copyrighted material so no one sections exceeds the 10% rule of thumb often used when determining infringement. 

However, it does not have to be crack. You are confusing encryption with copyright. Encryptions has its own protections. However, any work can have a copyright and the original author has the right to choose when and where people may enjoy that work. Copying it and plastering it on the internet does not revoke the original authors rights with the material. 

<<<<<>>>>>

Ultimately users of software need to realize the constraints that developers are under, in that under most cases they cannot distribute entire copies of manuals. Trying to bypass the whole licensing issue by telling people to just search the internet is not the right answer either. If you really want a copy of the information and it is not restricted, then legitimately purchase a copy from https://www.mooney.com/ or one of their authorized technical manual distributors. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by KenG
Clarity

[leprechaunlive 1,854]

3 hours ago, KenG said:

 

I bypass the whole licensing issue by telling people to just search the internet is not the right answer either. If you really want a copy of the information and it is not restricted, then legitimately purchase a copy from https://www.mooney.com/ or one of their authorized technical manual distributors. 

So turns out you do have to search the internet after all...

[oeker 4]

A good documentation is not a direct copy of original.

It is specific to the model - what is not implemented - keyboard shortcuts and similar

[tweekz 2,165]

6 hours ago, leprechaunlive said:

Why did you expect a 50pages manual with a Carenado aircraft? Not our fault, or Asobos fault, or Carenados fault, if you raise your expectations too high

I probably shouldn't say that out loud, but I didn't even read 50 pages manual of the plane I am actually flying. 🤐

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

2 hours ago, oeker said:

A good documentation is not a direct copy of original.

It is specific to the model - what is not implemented - keyboard shortcuts and similar

 

But generally they are just the defaults for the sim or alternatively what you have set up for yourself ? They all show up in the game keyboard setup menu anyway, 

You can sum up the unique features of the Mooney in a couple of lines - it has custom instrument views, clicking on the panel in the left window opens it for a louder but more immersive flight and it has little mini spoilers you can deploy to slow down.  I have spoilers mapped to a joystick button. Pretty much everything else is either generic to the sim like the Garmin or is a feature of the real aircraft  like the prop/throttle cruise settings on the sun visor.

When payware I have purchased comes with a nice manual such as the Bleriot for example or Jabiru (which I absolutely love but it has a few FM issues that do irritate people, though they are working on it) that is a nice bonus that helps distinguish it from freeware, but it is by no means essential.