Simple question to RW pilots regarding IFR and ipads

[xender 474]

Hi guys!

I'm the proud owner of a piper arrow III (in MSFS obviously) and i refuse to touch the default GPS units in the sim, so im flying my arrow just using radio navigation, a calculator, compass and a chronometer. So far so good but i was wondering, how does that work in the real world on some legs where you're out of coverage from the vor station?

Let me give you an example: Lets say that i'm flying the arrow from Puerto Rico to Miami (Ignore the range of the plane, doesn't matter). Along the route over the bahamas there are some legs that i will have to fly "Blind". By "Blind" i mean that i will need to fly like 100 or 200nm without any radio navigation station before i can pick the next station.

Right now i just keep the heading that i know i need and do distance calculations based on time and groundspeed. That works, and after an hour or so i will pick the signal of the next vor station but in the real world it looks a bit scary to fly that way at night.

Is this how it works on the real world? Can you legally fly IFR that way?

I see that everyone in the real world is using foreflight but as far as i know you can't use foreflight and an ipad as your primary navigation system, only to get "Situational awareness". So how does that work if you dont have an airplane with a GPS but you have foreflight and an ipad? Do you fly vor to vor as your primary form of navigation and just use foreflight to augment your knowledge and confirm your position? What will happen then when you dont have a vor signal anymore (and you're an hour away from picking the next one) but you have your ipad? wont your ipad become your primary source of navigation during that phase, at least until you pick the next vor? Is that legal?

We obviously dont have foreflight on msfs but im using a laptop with little navmap to to basically the same.

Edited March 15, 2021 by xender

[ryanbatc 13,035]

If you truly only had a VOR you'd file as /U (vor without dme) or /A (vor and dme).  You'd have to fly at an altitude that allows for reception of the VOR.  Depending on where you fly that could be quite high.  If ATC has you on radar you could be given a radar vector.  Example "fly heading 220 until able direct GEP VOR."  

I'm not instrument rated so maybe someone can tell you what the rules are for lateral flight between navaids.

[polosim 858]

11 minutes ago, xender said:

ipad become your primary source of navigation during that phase,

Not your primary, but a backup.

 

Your heading correcting by wind, called ‘track’ and your clock will be your primary source. 
‘Scary’ , no doubt.

[dbw1 448]

What you are describing will probably have you in at least some uncontrolled airspace so things are less restrictive unless you are crossing airways (controlled airspace) from time to time. As to having a distance of no VOR reception you fly out on a radial till you lose it then a heading till you pick up the next VOR and fly it inbound. You could be doing it between 2 NDBs, a VOR and an NBD.... Being unpressurized and without supplemental O2 you're probably be at a max of 10,000 (except the 30 minute rule). To figure out VOR reception range over a flat area with no obstacles between you and the station if I remember correctly the formula is is the square root of your altitude above the station times 1.23. I'm sure someone will correct this is my memory is off.....Probably a few active ATC controllers here.  If you've got an ADF I have had stations I could receive well over 500 miles away over water and several hundred over land.....I flew for quite a few years in Canada's arctic where the floor of controlled airspace can be as high as 23,000 or 28,000 feet (at least it was when i retired. In uncontrolled airspace even IFR you can basically do what you want subject to common sense. Your clearance will probably have some verbiage to the effect of, "When in controlled airspace" or "enter/depart controlled airspace at/by....".

 

Hope this helps a little. Any Controllers please correct any errors as I'm now a little out of date.

[xender 474]

3 minutes ago, polosim said:

Not your primary, but a backup.

 

Your heading correcting by wind, called ‘track’ and your clock will be your primary source. 
‘Scary’ , no doubt.

So in that case my primary would be compass, chronometer, calculator and faith in ******* christ and the ipad would be only used as a confirmation?

[Av8ing1 46]

Dead reckoning can be used for navigation. For VFR flight. 

Dead reckoning - Wikipedia

I think that for IFR, legally, you need certified instruments not an iPad (GPS).

[dbw1 448]

12 minutes ago, Av8ing1 said:

Dead reckoning can be used for navigation. For VFR flight. 

Dead reckoning - Wikipedia

I think that for IFR, legally, you need certified instruments not an iPad (GPS).

The aircraft needs to be certified/approved for IFR flight and the pilot needs to be rated. 

Dating myself, lol, in 1980/81 I was based in St. John's newfoundland out of the Innotech hangar and it was a jumping of place to head for the Azores (1000+ NM). I remember seeing a single engine Cessna with a 45 Imp Gal drum in the back seat with hose to a wobble pump to another hose going out the window and taped up the strut to go into the gas tank. I asked the guy how he felt about betting his caboose on a $3 +/- diaphragm and his response was he had spare parts for the pump. Plan was to drive out on a radial from the YYT VOR till he lost it then a heading till picking up a nav signal which i am pretty sure would be a NDB. This was not uncommon for singles and light twins. No GPS in those days. It was simply situation normal.

[xender 474]

22 minutes ago, Av8ing1 said:

Dead reckoning can be used for navigation. For VFR flight. 

Dead reckoning - Wikipedia

I think that for IFR, legally, you need certified instruments not an iPad (GPS).

So, to fly IFR legally on the route above i will need to always be in range of a radio nav station or be in radar contact during the segments outside the vor range?

[sd_flyer 6,088]

Nowdays IRL we use GPS in 99% of aircraft 🙂 But in old days you would be aware of nav signal outage as they often published on charts or mentioned in NOTAMS and would communicate with ATC via compulsory points while resuming your own navigation using dead reckoning. If you would be out of ATC coverage you would contact them back when in range.

For those who fly low and slow one example would be a Banning pass between LA basin and Palm Spring . When fly via Banning either way ATC always looses your signal and picked up on the other end

Edited March 15, 2021 by sd_flyer

[SAS443 1,731]

@xender

You can run the line of sight equation to find out the VOR range. (from experience this may not always be correct when you are in the plane, but anyway)

Quote

 1.23√"airplane alt" -"Station alt"

So if you're 4.500ft higher than the VOR station you will receive signal from 82,5NM maximum.

Edited March 15, 2021 by SAS443

[regis9 4,039]

Is line of sight range modelled in MSFS?  I feel like I read that it was but am not sure.

[polosim 858]

1 hour ago, xender said:

and faith in ******* christ and the ipad would be only used as a confirmation?

Faith It's  optional. 

 

You're asking for a fictitious scenery, IRL in these days, not will happen. Some years ago,( early 90's ) when you crossed over Gulf of Mexico to Louisiana or Houston area, primary navaids between this points are NDB stations, in some point in the middle you lost signals and start navigating based on heading and time until you received the next NDB station. So in those days this was a common scenery.

[xender 474]

5 minutes ago, polosim said:

Faith It's  optional.

You're asking for a fictitious scenery, IRL in these days, not will happen. Some years ago,( early 90's ) when you crossed over Gulf of Mexico to Louisiana or Houston area, primary navaids between this points are NDB stations, in some point in the middle you lost signals and start navigating based on heading and time until you received the next NDB station. So in those days this was a common scenery.

So today i wont be able to do it that way legally?

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

Speaking as a military guy, flying direct VOR to VOR can be really tough on the gas unless the VOR is aligned fairly closely to where you are going, and that's saying something for a GA aircraft.  Dead Reckoning, and plan your flight and fly your plan, and always include a plan for contingencies along your route.  You can establish your position by two or more VORs/VORTACs/NDBs without DME (the more the better), or just one if you have DME.  Doesn't have to be the VOR you're flying to, or even in the same direction.  Deadzones will be intimidating unless you plan your flight and fly your plan, doing this will reduce the stress of the flight.

 

[Chock 17,769]

As noted, you probably should be able to use ADF if you fly high enough over water and both the Carenado and the Just Flight PA-28 Arrows have this equipment. But there is another thing you can do to help you, which used to be a common technique for navigation up until but is less well used these days, and that's something called 'aiming off'. Aiming off can be seen as an assistant to deduced reckoning; in fairness it can't always be used (it depends on the terrain features you will pass over or near to), however, it is sometimes worth altering your course slightly in situations where it might be possible. Here's how.

Let's say there is a fairly featureless coastline across a large stretch of water which you are flying to, and you intend to fly across the water and intercept the mouth of a river estuary on that otherwise pretty featureless coastline. If you aim straight for the estuary, there is a chance that you might drift either left or right of your intended course as you pass over the water, so that by the time you reach the coast you don't see the estuary, but you will then be in trouble because you won't know whether to turn left or right to find the estuary, since you don't know which way you were drifting off course whilst you were over the water. This is where aiming off comes in.

If instead of aiming straight for the estuary, you calculate the maximum number of miles you are likely to be blown off course by a crosswind upon arrival at the coast, and then deliberately fly a heading which corresponds to that mount either left, or right of the straight heading for the estuary, when you arrive at the coastline, if you cannot see the estuary, you will know which way to turn in order to find it. This was a common navigation technique for fighters and bombers in WW2, but you can still make use of it today if you don't want to use the GPS and it's worth knowing because GPS signals do occasionally go down or get jammed although there is usually a NOTAM about this, if it is going to occur.