1 hour ago, RXP said:

From the autopilot code though, it is nearly the exact same code running since FS9 (and up to P3D5 as well).

I am puzzled by this... In P3DV5, I can nudge the yoke a bit while on autopilot, and the AP maintains control.  In MSFS, the airplane reacts to even small yoke movements, and the AP quickly runs out of correction room and puts the airplane into a spiral dive.

This does not look like the same code running... where is the difference?

1 minute ago, Bert Pieke said:

I am puzzled by this...

the core code actuating the control surfaces, based on the arm/engaged modes, selected based on the SDK logicial view that the core autopilot system is a Bendix King, it the same from FS9 to P3D5 including FS2020. This revolves around a state machine (what states are active, i.e. NAV HOLD, NAV CAPT, ALT HOLD, N1 HOLD etc...), a transition state table which is actually hard-coded in the form of the code itself (changing from HDG mode to NAV mode disables and enables these internal states), and PIDs to drive the control surfaces based on the difference between the current and the target values.

What you're describing though is different and is just a condition outside the internal Bendix King autopilot model running inside the core. It has probably more to do with a different way to handle user input which is not disconnected because it is not taking in account the autopilot code and its modes.

This could happen for example if you take the old FSX code which is running fine and you don't want to change much of it on one hand, then you implement new input handling code no longer based on DirectInput but on XInput for Xbox (hence why to me FFB is no longer working), and you put both in the same code base forgetting the link between the two which is not algorithmic and thus maybe not prominent just from the look of it in terms of source code, but semantic in the aeronautical world when considering how real autopilots are in fact actuating servos which are bounded to the control input (yoke) and therefore opposing the human control forces on the yoke.

Otherwise it is just a simple bug in the code and I'll let Occam's razor choose 😄

 

4 hours ago, CarlosF said:

It is beyond me why people still compare a sim that has been out for many many many years with one that just got out if the oven. You have to give ASOBO time, at least a couple of years.

I can remember when FSX came out, so many of us complaining about this and that, now it seems like is on par with MSFS. Go figure!!

Well, there's two viewpoints out there, sometimes overlapping. Some people do indeed criticize the unfinished state of FS2020. I partly agree that this is not entirely fair, as the sim is quite new, and the devs are actively working on it. There is an argument to be made for it being released too early, however.

And other people criticize the direction the sim is going in. Giving the devs time in this case is the worst thing possible, since the longer we wait, the worse things get. As far as I see, the set of tools the SDK will make available to third party devs is simply not sufficient to deliver the same quality of addons as FSX. And that is by design, as the devs keep quoting security concerns that have never been a concern in more than two decades of flight simulation. And even ignoring that, the sandbox environment does not actually solve the problems quoted by the devs.

In conclusion, a lot of us are comparing FSX to FS2020 because, if things keep going the way they are, FS2020 will never be as good as FSX. Sure, it will have nicer graphics, but that's about it. Whilst we all like nicer graphics, that is the very last thing one should be concerned with when it comes to a sim. But with FS2020... that seems to be the main concern. Why, I wonder, if the end goal is a sim?

16 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

I am puzzled by this... In P3DV5, I can nudge the yoke a bit while on autopilot, and the AP maintains control.  In MSFS, the airplane reacts to even small yoke movements, and the AP quickly runs out of correction room and puts the airplane into a spiral dive.

This does not look like the same code running... where is the difference?

Depends on the aeroplane to some extent, and its autopilot system. Some aeroplanes have Control Wheel Steering (CWS mode) on the MCP, which is a bit like the fly by wire system on an Airbus, whereby your inputs direct the autopilot to adjust pitch or roll based on an interpretation of the inputs you make, so you are not directly controlling the flying surfaces, it's the autopilot which is doing that, which is why some pilots call it 'Airbus Mode'. Generally speaking though, for many modes on the MCP, if you move the yoke, that will disengage the autopilot and can be used in lieu of hitting a disconnect switch.

You have to be careful with that, it was the cause of a crash of an L-1011 once, where the crew were faffing about trying to fix a gear light indicator bulb and one of them nudged the yoke and disengaged the autopilot, they carried on faffing about with nobody monitoring the instruments because they simply assumed the aeroplane was still being commanded by the autopilot. Since it was a night, not over a city, there was no out of the window visual clue as to that and the next minute they were nose-diving into a swamp as the GPWS sounded.

Edited May 21, 20215 yr by Chock

5 minutes ago, Cristi_Neagu said:

As far as I see, the set of tools the SDK will make available to third party devs is simply not sufficient to deliver the same quality of addons as FSX. And that is by design, as the devs keep quoting security concerns that have never been a concern in more than two decades of flight simulation. And even ignoring that, the sandbox environment does not actually solve the problems quoted by the devs.

In conclusion, a lot of us are comparing FSX to FS2020 because, if things keep going the way they are, FS2020 will never be as good as FSX. Sure, 

Your first notion has been debunked by almost every major developer, including PMDG.  They (and others) have stated the SDK is no longer an impediment to their development; it’s even speculated with get the 737 late this year.  I understand there are some marginal developers pushing the limited SDK narrative, which is odd considering the current Aircraft in development. MoreOVER, the freeware releases offered for MSFS are well beyond anything released for FSX.  The FBW A320 and WT are becoming upper pay ware quality.  The quality of freeware airports are simply stunning and not seen before (with the exception of xplane)
 

The second notion is a little difficult to take seriously; although, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion!!  Yet, stating MSFS may never reach FSX quality is just bizarre, as it already vastly surpasses it in every aspect.  It’s like comparing a pinto to a Porsche.  Sure, they’re are a few summers who prefer to continue to use FSX; however, the market is so inconsequential that virtually all developers have abandoned it....rightfully so.  If you wish to fly/use the next generation aircraft/airports,  you will need to move on from FSX. 

28 minutes ago, Chock said:

Generally speaking though, for many modes on the MCP, if you move the yoke, that will disengage the autopilot and can be used in lieu of hitting a disconnect switch.

I am OK with that.. but what I am seeing is the AP staying engaged while it is flying me into the ground..

Just now, Bert Pieke said:

I am OK with that.. but what I am seeing is the AP staying engaged while it is flying me into the ground..

Well, that's not good. 

37 minutes ago, RXP said:

This could happen for example if you take the old FSX code which is running fine and you don't want to change much of it on one hand, then you implement new input handling code no longer based on DirectInput but on XInput for Xbox (hence why to me FFB is no longer working), and you put both in the same code base forgetting the link....

That, I can believe.. 😉

24 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

Your first notion has been debunked by almost every major developer, including PMDG.  They (and others) have stated the SDK is no longer an impediment to their development; it’s even speculated with get the 737 late this year.  I understand there are some marginal developers pushing the limited SDK narrative, which is odd considering the current Aircraft in development.

1. That was 2 months ago. A lot happens in two months. Until I see a proper 737 announced and showcased by PMDG (or even a DC6), the situation remains as it is.

2. PMDG are working directly with Asobo. They are one of the privileged few, hardly representative of the larger developer community out there.

3. There aren't just "marginal developers". JustFlight is saying it, so is MilViz, AIG, Indiafoxtecho, RXP, etc. The one message i've seen from anyone from A2A talking about development for FS2020 hinted at the same issues. In other words, pretty much anyone that doesn't have a favoured position with Asobo is pointing out just how restrictive the development environment it.

24 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

MoreOVER, the freeware releases offered for MSFS are well beyond anything released for FSX.  The FBW A320 and WT are becoming upper pay ware quality.  The quality of freeware airports are simply stunning and not seen before (with the exception of xplane)

Whilst a lot of those freeware addons are quite good, it's quite a stretch calling them "beyond anything released for FSX". No FS2020 plane on the market today flies right. All of them have some sort of compromise. I invite you to frequent JustFlight's forums, where the developers point out various problems in the FS2020 flight model they have to contend with, which usually leads to compromised behaviour. And freeware airports look better because the game looks better overall.

24 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

The second notion is a little difficult to take seriously; although, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion!!  Yet, stating MSFS may never reach FSX quality is just bizarre, as it already vastly surpasses it in every aspect.

I am looking at FSX while also taking into account the vast and varied ecosystem it has created. You choose to ignore it, and I also think you are entitled to your opinion. But the fact is that FSX allowed developers to expand its functionality, while FS2020 locks developers in a sandbox. This is the reason why FS2020 can never be as good as FSX in the current status quo: FS2020 can never be more than what it already is. The only thing FS2020 does better than FSX at this point is graphics. Even the ATC system in FSX is miles better than the one in FS2020. And the only thing that matters here is how open the platform is to third party developers. I've seen P3D videos that looks just as good as FS2020. In fact, they look better, because they have fully functional airliners, fully functional traffic, fully functional weather, fully functional weather radar, fully functional ATC, fully functional everything.

Also, i invite you to explain to everyone here exactly how is FS2020 so much better. Does it get better weather than ActiveSky? Does it have better flight models than A2A? Does it even have better ATC that doesn't want you to climb into the flight levels on short final? And how's the real time traffic? And if you're going to say "well, those are all addons!", you're simply missing the point.

24 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

Sure, they’re are a few summers who prefer to continue to use FSX; however, the market is so inconsequential that virtually all developers have abandoned it....rightfully so.  If you wish to fly/use the next generation aircraft/airports,  you will need to move on from FSX. 

FSX has been abandoned because P3D came along. If Lockheed Martin never made P3D, FSX would be just as alive as it has always been. And at this point, the difference between P3D and FS2020 is night and day. Sure, you need a better computer to run it, and it will require third party addons, but i've seen P3D look just as good as FS2020, taking away the one advantage it has. So currently, if you want to fly/use the next generation aircraft and addons bringing you the best realism, you need to move on from FS2020 into P3D.

Edited May 21, 20215 yr by Cristi_Neagu

JustFlight literally have aircraft on the market for MSFS right now! You seem to prefer your opinion over those who create flight sim content for a living. Prey Tel, if the SDK is so limiting, how do we have FlyTampa Airports, Aerosoft CRJ and the wonderful FBW and WT aircraft!!? Heck, even last week we got a WASM module with FSUIPC that allows cockpit builders and programs several more functionality. 

Just now, kingm56 said:

JustFlight literally have aircraft on the market for MSFS right now!

Look, if you're going to keep ignoring what i say and instead prefer your own opinion of my words over my actual words, what's the point of this? Care to quote EXACTLY where i said JustFlight doesn't have an aircraft on the market for FS2020 right now?

2 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

Prey Tel, if the SDK is so limiting, how do we have FlyTampa Airports, Aerosoft CRJ and the wonderful FBW and WT aircraft!!?

Pray tell, where did I say the SDK is limiting airports? And just having addons on the market doesn't mean they're better than their FSX/P3D counterparts.

3 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

Heck, even last week we got a WASM module with FSUIPC that allows cockpit builders and programs several more functionality. 

Who are you even arguing with? Where did I say there is NO functionality in FS2020 whatsoever? Either quote me or stay on topic.

If your next response is as completely out of touch with anything I said as this one is, i won't bother responding.

2 hours ago, kingm56 said:

JustFlight literally have aircraft on the market for MSFS right now! 

1) You are right they have an aircraft right now. But...

Have you read their devs comments though on their forums, where they are explaining how the new title is impairing their creativity? If not for changing opinion at least for getting additional information which might be comforting your opinion eventually?

 

2) As for sceneries and airports it is rather simple to me: not only the SDK from day one is focusing on the modeling tools, but most if not all interactions on the 3rd party dev forum are only about helping 3rd party devs requesting assistance for building sceneries and airports. Most other requests are left for months, some for more than a year, without any feedback whatsoever. This certainly is a factor to me.

 

3) As for Aerosoft, don't forget what Mathisj was saying:

A Video is worth 10,000 words - Developer's Videos - Community / General Discussion - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

Quote

but you ask Asobo for help and you will get is as long as you are in the correct cycle. You might need to wait for the next update of the sim to get it running on the sim customers have though. But as I said, when needed Asobo/MS will update when needed.

And here (quite condescending toward Asobo on top of that):

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/more-candid-insight-from-aerosofts-project-manager-on-msfs-the-crj-the-sdk-and-the-add-on-market/327843

Quote

As Asobo had zero experience with running the far more complex code in their simulator, it was rather easy to set up a system where Hans would show them what was needed and Asobo basically would try to get the code running. Of course knowledge flows both ways. We learned a lot about the sim, how to use it efficiently. Of course the comment will be that the SDK and the sim will be made to get the CRJ running. And yes, to some degree that is true. Hans and Asobo worked together every day, often until very late in the evening.

No one could argue against the fact it is quite a unique and highly privileged position to building and selling an aircraft on FS2020. I can tell you should MilViz, A2A, and many others were in the same position, they wouldn't dare saying FS2020 SDK is word not allowed either, and they see no road blocks, and FS2020 is fantastic. Like I said in another topic a while ago, anyone in such privileged position will never say the contrary, if not for the risk of loosing the privilege support and position, because they know in case of a road block they just have to ask, and Asobo will deliver for them.

Seriously, if RXP was in the same position as PMDG and Aerosoft in working daily with Asobo developers, I can tell you I'll be the first one to claim the SDK is fantastic and the simulator is the future. In the meantime...

Having said this, maybe what I written above is entirely irrational 🤪

Edited May 21, 20215 yr by RXP
misspelled Aerosoft

12 minutes ago, Cristi_Neagu said:

Look, if you're going to keep ignoring what i say and instead prefer your own opinion of my words over my actual words, what's the point of this? Care to quote EXACTLY where i said JustFlight doesn't have an aircraft on the market for FS2020 right now?

Pray tell, where did I say the SDK is limiting airports? And just having addons on the market doesn't mean they're better than their FSX/P3D counterparts.

Who are you even arguing with? Where did I say there is NO functionality in FS2020 whatsoever? Either quote me or stay on topic.

If your next response is as completely out of touch with anything I said as this one is, i won't bother responding.

You’re simply moving the goal post and ignoring your own argument. 

You stated MSFS SDK limitation will prevent the software from reaching FSX popularity.  You stated JustFlight is one of those companies complaining about the SDX.  I found that incredibly odd considering they have wonderful aircraft available for MSFS RIGHT NOW.  Care to explain this oxymoron?

I’ll ask one more time, if the SDK is so limiting, why do we have the Aerosoft  CRJ, FBW and WT Aircraft. Don’t move the goal post or subvert your claim. Just answer the question 
 

Just now, kingm56 said:

You stated MSFS SDK limitation will prevent the software from reaching FSX popularity.

Wrong. I said:

1 hour ago, Cristi_Neagu said:

if things keep going the way they are, FS2020 will never be as good as FSX.

And by "good", i am referring to the ecosystem built around it, not just the default sim that comes out of the box.

1 minute ago, kingm56 said:

You stated JustFlight is one of those companies complaining about the SDX.  I found that incredibly odd considering they have wonderful aircraft available for MSFS RIGHT NOW.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Go on JustFlight's forum in their thread on the Arrow for FS2020 and go through the posts and you will find many instances of the developers talking about compromises they had to make because of the core FS2020 internals. The wing geometry cannot be defined as it is in real life cause that will lead to deeply unrealistic flight behaviour. The engine cannot have the same performance as the real life one, because the way the engine model is made in FS2020 simply does not allow it.

5 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

I’ll ask one more time, if the SDK is so limiting, why do we have the Aerosoft  CRJ, FBW and WT Aircraft. Don’t move the goal post or subvert your claim. Just answer the question 

And i'll ask one more time: Quote me where i said that the SDK is not capable of producing any airplane at all.

4 minutes ago, RXP said:

1) You are right they have an aircraft right now. But...

Have you read their devs comments though on their forums, where they are explaining how the new title is impairing their creativity? If not for changing opinion at least for getting additional information which might be comforting your opinion eventually?

 

2) As for sceneries and airports it is rather simple to me: not only the SDK from day one is focusing on the modeling tools, but most if not all interactions on the 3rd party dev forum are only about helping 3rd party devs requesting assistance for building sceneries and airports. Most other requests are left for months, some for more than a year, without any feedback whatsoever. This certainly is a factor to me.

 

3) As for Aeorosoft, don't forget what Mathisj was saying:

A Video is worth 10,000 words - Developer's Videos - Community / General Discussion - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

And here (quite condescending toward Asobo on top of that):

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/more-candid-insight-from-aerosofts-project-manager-on-msfs-the-crj-the-sdk-and-the-add-on-market/327843

No one could argue against the fact it is quite a unique and highly privileged position to building and selling an aircraft on FS2020. I can tell you should MilViz, A2A, and many others were in the same position, they wouldn't dare saying FS2020 SDK is word not allowed either, and they see no road blocks, and FS2020 is fantastic. Like I said in another topic a while ago, anyone in such privileged position will never say the contrary, if not for the risk of loosing the privilege support and position, because they know in case of a road block they just have to ask, and Asobo will deliver for them.

Having said this, maybe what I written above is entirely irrational 🤪

Lol. As a developer myself I understand their concerns. I’d prefer to continue to use c++ and/or c#.  However, the reality is it’s possible to build complex aircraft via WASM today.  As RR from PMDG stated, “the SDK is no longer a limitation.”   I really found Aerosoft CRJ approach to MSFS very interesting.  Regardless, I appreciate your well articulated and inform response!!