MSFS has the most advanced flight model?

[abrams_tank 7,424]

1 hour ago, Chock said:

Well, we kind of know threads like this are going to go south pretty much from the get go. It's never a matter of if they will, more a case of will they make it past two or three pages. 🤣

The thread has been pretty civil so far up to page 6 so that's good.  The feedback from real life pilots on the MSFS flight model was nice.  However, I was also hoping more aerospace engineers would contribute to this thread but it seems like Avsim has plenty of real life pilots but not many aerospace engineers.  Looks like all the aerospace engineers hang out in the MSFS forums.

Edited June 8, 2021 by abrams_tank

[Janov 2,383]

57 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Looks like all the aerospace engineers hang out in the MSFS forums.

If I am not mistaken, THIS is the MSFS forum?

However, if you want the input from an aerospace engineer you can mail to: Austin@x-plane.com 😁

[versus 61]

Whenever I see this topic pop up I immediately ask myself could there be some objective method to prove who is actually right here (MS vs LR).

Is there really a possibility to do some comprehensive test without it costing a fortune? 

Was thinking about pulling the input data (surfaces deflections and engine data) out of some portable FDR like 

https://www.l3harris.com/all-capabilities/lightweight-data-recorder-ldra

and injecting it into sim and than comparing the output (position, and attitude)  from FDR with the sim.

MS and Asobo could you prove scientifically that your aircrafts fly like the real ones 😀? 

Edited June 8, 2021 by versus

[davenicoll 104]

Quote from Bobski - "All I know is when I try a simulator, I compare how it feels to how it feels when I fly an aircraft in real life.  X Plane never made me feel like I was flying a real aircraft. MSFS 2020, with the aircraft I have tried, the C 172, Mooney, JF Arrow and Seminole twin, feel to me just like what I feel flying a real aircraft.  "

 

As good an endoresement as there is...

 

Dave

[abrams_tank 7,424]

1 hour ago, Janov said:

If I am not mistaken, THIS is the MSFS forum?

However, if you want the input from an aerospace engineer you can mail to: Austin@x-plane.com

MSFS forums at https://forums.flightsimulator.com/

Also, my understanding is that there are/were aerospace engineers working for Asobo, from the thread I cited in the original post.  I also posted a link to the flight model used for MSFS in the original post.  When I look at the math for the flight model, it does appear to be developed by an aerospace engineer (I'm not an aerospace engineer but if that math is bogus math, then Microsoft/Asobo pulled a good one on all of us, lol).

Edited June 8, 2021 by abrams_tank

[bobcat999 8,484]

13 hours ago, DavidP said:

Let's just say that they are interesting when they stall 😆

The Carenado Tomahawk I had in FSX was actually a pretty good model. 

Carenado are not normally well regarded for their flight dynamics, but the rudder used to make a hell of a clanging noise when the plane snapped around.  Apparently it does this in real life.

I would like one in MSFS actually.  Just Flight made one as well which I flew a bit in Xplane, so maybe there is a chance! 

[Janov 2,383]

13 minutes ago, davenicoll said:

Quote from Bobski - "All I know is when I try a simulator, I compare how it feels to how it feels when I fly an aircraft in real life.  X Plane never made me feel like I was flying a real aircraft. MSFS 2020, with the aircraft I have tried, the C 172, Mooney, JF Arrow and Seminole twin, feel to me just like what I feel flying a real aircraft.  "

 

As good an endoresement as there is...

Quote from myself (ATP with 25 years of flying airliners and time on F33A, Piper Cheyenne IIIA, C-152, Piper Cherokee, Boeing 737 (several variants), B747-400, and A320 family (including NEO):

All I know when I try a simulator, I compare how it feels to how it feels when I fly an aircraft in real life. With X-Plane the aircraft I flew that I have experience on in real life as well feel just like what I feel flying the real aircraft.

Is that an endorsement of similiar quality? 😉

Edited June 8, 2021 by Janov

[abrams_tank 7,424]

11 minutes ago, Janov said:

Quote from myself (ATP with 25 years of flying airliners and time on F33A, Piper Cheyenne IIIA, C-152, Piper Cherokee, Boeing 737 (several variants), B747-400, and A320 family (including NEO):

All I know when I try a simulator, I compare how it feels to how it feels when I fly an aircraft in real life. With X-Plane the aircraft I flew that I have experience on in real life as well feel just like what I feel flying the real aircraft.

Is that an endorsement of similiar quality? 😉

Yes, your feedback on your experience with X-Plane is valuable.  That's why it's better to have input from a wide variety of pilots, and the more input from real life pilots, the better.  Maybe there will be a more scientific way to conduct this survey in the future.  Also, the input from aerospace engineers are also valuable (but it seems no aerospace engineer has participated in this thread here at AVSIM so far).

Edited June 8, 2021 by abrams_tank

[HiFlyer 9,360]

1 hour ago, versus said:

Whenever I see this topic pop up I immediately think of some objective method to prove who is actually right.

I usually think its pretty much all subjective.

Licensed pilots, particularly those who have flown the actual physical aircraft, could be a source of authority on this, or at least like many, I used to assume so, but over the years what one finds is that real pilots as often as not totally disagree with and contradict one another. 🤔

One could try to post some numbers, but of course, there are seemingly always competing numbers. And of course our various individual systems and mechanical setups all have their personal quirks that tend to make them respond quite differently from the guy down the street....

So.... 

After all the back and forth, I'm often left wondering (as many have also done) just how much any of what we do, sitting motionless in our living rooms in front of a monitor, has much actual relevance to a real, working aircraft, beyond familiarization with procedures, etc.

My personal conclusion tends toward thinking threads like these (besides the just chatting around the cooler aspect of it all) are mainly "social glue" while also reinforcing the popular community theme that we here... are doing something above and beyond "mere" gaming.

Anyways.....

I think probably most people in the thread are pretty aware of the unlikelihood of us arriving at any sort of consensus on this, since we've been here before, and we never do. 🙀

Seems we all just like to talk, while we wait! 😺

Edited June 8, 2021 by HiFlyer

[jarmstro 2,403]

59 minutes ago, Janov said:

If I am not mistaken, THIS is the MSFS forum?

However, if you want the input from an aerospace engineer you can mail to: Austin@x-plane.com 😁

Ah! So that's the answer as to why it's fans refer to X-Plane as an 'engineering tool'. Meyers is an engineer.

[abrams_tank 7,424]

7 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

I usually think its pretty much all subjective.

Licensed pilots, particularly those who have flown the actual physical aircraft, could be a source of authority on this, or at least like many, I used to assume so, but over the years what one finds is that real pilots as often as not totally disagree with and contradict one another. 🤔

 

Definitely, the feedback from real life pilots is subjective.

What isn't as subjective though is the math of the flight model.  From the original thread at the MSFS forums, it appears some aerospace engineers have looked into the math and looked into the flight model for MSFS.  And the consensus I get from that thread is that the flight model for MSFS is potentially more advanced than X-Plane, but it requires more tweaking.  At the same time from that thread from the MSFS forums, it appears that while X-Plane's flight model is less advanced than MSFS, it has been tweaked more over the years (what one poster refers to as "kludge") so it may provide a better experience currently.

I was hoping some aerospace engineers here at AVSIM could provide additional insight into this, but none have so far (like I said, maybe the aerospace engineers hang out at the MSFS forums at forums.flightsimulator.com and not here at AVSIM).

[WestAir 2,522]

Slightly on topic, but one of the nightmares I had when I flew GA was (and maybe it was just me. I taxii'd pretty darn fast because either I was paying, or later, a student was paying) that at speed I could never take turns with full rudder / nosewheel deflection. I needed to ride the differential brakes to make turns at any speed more than a brisk walk. IIRC the cirrus was the glaring exception.

In comparison with MSFS, I find about a 1 degree deflection of the rudder is all I need to spin the thing in circles. It gets really bad right before I rotate where I can sometimes lose directional control and I don't get it back until I'm in the air.

So that's one pilots opinion of one aspect of MSFS's physics. I swapped my rudder pedals out from CH to Thrustmaster and messed with the curves all day long and in my opinion, as far as the 172 is concerned, the nosewheel is cartoonishly too effective. Take with salt.

[HiFlyer 9,360]

2 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

I was hoping some aerospace engineers here at AVSIM could provide additional insight into this, but none have so far (like I said, maybe the aerospace engineers hang out at the MSFS forums at forums.flightsimulator.com and not here at AVSIM).

While not an Aerospace engineer, my friend Jcomm is a mathematician who has fiddled extensively with plane maker and the flight model. He's mentioned some of those "kludges" over the years, consisting of invisible wings, wheels and etc, to make a plane behave somewhat close to the extant math.

The impression I gathered from that is that a lot of this stuff is compromised of magic tricks, fooling us mostly/simply because the vast majority will likely never see the hidden mess under the curtain....

Eh. 🤷‍♂️

[sd_flyer 6,043]

1 hour ago, Janov said:

If I am not mistaken, THIS is the MSFS forum?

However, if you want the input from an aerospace engineer you can mail to: Austin@x-plane.com 😁

 He will definitely give most objective unbiased opinion on MSFS! It's like if you want to know truth about health while smoking ask Malboro, they provide unbiased information 😃

[abrams_tank 7,424]

10 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

While not an Aerospace engineer, my friend Jcomm is a mathematician who has fiddled extensively with plane maker and the flight model. He's mentioned some of those "kludges" over the years, consisting of invisible wings, wheels and etc, to make a plane behave somewhat close to the extant math.

The impression I gathered from that is that a lot of this stuff is compromised of magic tricks, fooling us mostly/simply because the vast majority will likely never see the hidden mess under the curtain....

Eh. 🤷‍♂️

Haha, that's interesting.  Yeah, I guess those are the examples of the "kludges" that the poster from the MSFS forums was referring to.  So it appears there are some gaps with the X-Plane flight model but those gaps were covered in this way.  Thanks for sharing this!

Edited June 8, 2021 by abrams_tank