1 minute ago, akita said:

This is the most vague and general explanation that I've ever seen in my entire life frankly.

What are those "layers", don't they have a name? How does those layers work with "the graphics layer"? What technical debt?

Without all the fiddling around, to render a frame you need to upload the needed scene's/frame's data through "layers" (as you call them) to the GPU, which can execute in in parallel thanks to many comupte units in there. The foundation to all of this, to the graphics VS FPS is the rendering engine, and it's foundation is the graphics API.

So what layers are you talking about? Be specific, give an example of a scenario from your own experience where a given mysterious "layer" is hurting the frames, maybe then I will understand and react accordingly.

Look, this is a waste of time.  I can't teach you the basics of software development and software architecture from step 1.  For layers, I suggest you start reading from here:  https://levelup.gitconnected.com/layers-in-software-architecture-that-every-sofware-architect-should-know-76b2452b9d9a

For technical debt, you can start reading here: https://www.stepsize.com/blog/complete-guide-to-technical-debt

 

35 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Look, this is a waste of time.  I can't teach you the basics of software development and software architecture from step 1.  For layers, I suggest you start reading from here:  https://levelup.gitconnected.com/layers-in-software-architecture-that-every-sofware-architect-should-know-76b2452b9d9a

For technical debt, you can start reading here: https://www.stepsize.com/blog/complete-guide-to-technical-debt

 

I'm not looking for guides and not somebody teaching me about stuff that I probably know better than an average guy (understatement...), nor trying to show any kind superior knowledge, YOU are the one who claimed what you claimed, YOU are the one that should be specific! 

I own both MSFS and Xplane, very familiar with lots of technical details about their features and can give very specific examples that stand behind my point. You on the other hand keep talking about "layers" in Xplane (which you don't even own) that needs to be reworked, so I ask again, what are those layers? 

What "layer" should be rewroked so Xplane's current cloud tech run faster? what "layer" should be improved so reflections tech in Xplane won't take so many FPS?

I know the answers, do you?

 

 

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by akita

7 minutes ago, akita said:

I'm not looking for guides and not somebody teaching me about stuff that I probably know better than an average guy (understatement...), nor trying to show any kind superior knowledge, YOU are the one who claimed what you claimed, YOU are the one that should be specific! 

I own both MSFS and Xplane, very familiar with lots of technical details about their features and can give very specific examples that stand behind my point. You on the other hand keep talking about "layers" in Xplane (which you don't even own) that needs to be reworked, so I ask again, what are those layers? Please explain to me what is the bottleneck when it comes to Xplane's FPS killer clouds?  or about it's reflections? what "layer" is responsible for that? What makes MSFS clouds look and perform better than Xplane?

I know the answers and the bottlenecks, do you? 

I explained it to you right there: 

I even broke it down and simplified it for you, given that you don't seem to be a professional software developer. 

What annoys me is that you don't bother to read up on some of the terminology used, and yet your are so impolite. Like I said, this is a waste of time for me.

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

1 minute ago, abrams_tank said:

I explained it to you right there: 

I even broke it down and simplified it for you, given that you don't seem to be a professional software developer. 

What annoys me is that you don't bother to read up on some of the terminology used, and yet your are so impolite. Like I said, this is a waste of time for me.

The same very general and vague comment. "Layer 1" "Layer 2" "Layer 3", definitely a very specific analyze of the condition.

In order to solve a bottleneck, you need to know what it is first, how can you say something when you don't even know what it is?

I can assure you this, Xplane clouds and reflections are FPS heavy compared to their quality and this has nothing to do with "layer 1 2 or 3".

21 hours ago, w6kd said:

Personally, though, if you then decide to buy it, I'd uninstall that and get the Steam version instead.

I'll second that. I got tired of jumping through the upgrade hoops at the MS Store, trying to figure out just the right combination of stuff to get it to work. Took the loss and re-purchased the game on Steam. The WU the other day was my first upgrade with the Steam version. One click and it was done!  Can't say enough good things about it!

 

Russ

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by b1bmsgt

The thing that has me the most curious is this -

 

... seeming as it is  it is called X Plane why isn't it available on X Box ?   What is with that ?

19 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

The thing that has me the most curious is this -

 

... seeming as it is  it is called X Plane why isn't it available on X Box ?   What is with that ?

It's available for X11 tho

1 hour ago, akita said:

So what layers are you talking about?

In simple terms. 

I want to paint a picture. You want to paint a picture. You can paint the actual picture faster than me with your faster rendering engine. 

Yet I can still get the picture painted before you are done. How? 

My store to buy the brushes and paint is closer, therefore I have my materials before you. I am faster at setting up my easel so I can start painting before you. 

So I might be three quarters done painting my picture before you even start. Even though you paint faster than me, it is not fast enough to finish your painting before mine is finished, and I am already getting another canvas on the easel, with new materials purchased. You can't start painting until you finish, then you still have to acquire and setup for your next masterpiece. 

My acquisition and setup layers are more optimized. 

Of course in these multi layer software programs, we both have others buying the materials and setting up the canvas for us. I am always painting, you are often waiting. If I paint at a speed a lot slower than you, your production may outstrip mine, and my output will be less than yours as I will have materials piling up waiting to be used, so I will just skip a few of my intended paintings, discard the materials purchased and produce less per day. (fps) You will use all your materials and produce more than me for that day. 

If I now simply increase my painting speed (optimize my rendering engine) than my daily output will increase. Unfortunately, for you to increase your output you will have to get your materials and setup processes more optimized to do so.

Ultimately, if I am unable to paint fast enough, by replacing me with someone faster, overall output (frames/sec) can more easily be increased. You on the other hand will have to find a faster driver, a better route, a more competent easel assembler to increase. Much more work, and if you unknowingly hire a material purchaser that is red/green color blind, or an easel assembler that prefers nails VS screws, you may incur an unforseen problem (bug) that may be harder to solve, or may not decrease the time to get you your materials. 

Remember, your job is really last. 

 

 

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by OneOfMany

14 minutes ago, OneOfMany said:

In simple terms. 

I want to paint a picture. You want to paint a picture. You can paint the actual picture faster than me with your faster rendering engine. 

Yet I can still get the picture painted before you are done. How? 

My store to buy the brushes and paint is closer, therefore I have my materials before you. I am faster at setting up my easel so I can start painting before you. 

So I might be three quarters done painting my picture before you even start. Even though you paint faster than me, it is not fast enough to finish your painting before mine is finished, and I am already getting another canvas on the easel, with new materials purchased. You can't start painting until you finish, then you still have to acquire and setup for your next masterpiece. 

My acquisition and setup layers are more optimized. 

Of course in these multi layer software programs, we both have others buying the materials and setting up the canvas for us. I am always painting, you are often waiting. If I paint at a speed a lot slower than you, your production may outstrip mine, and my output will be less than yours as I will have materials piling up waiting to be used, so I will just skip a few of my intended paintings, discard the materials purchased and produce less per day. (fps) You will use all your materials and produce more than me for that day. 

If I now simply increase my painting speed (optimize my rendering engine) than my daily output will increase. Unfortunately, for you to increase your output you will have to get your materials and setup processes more optimized to do so.

Ultimately, if I am unable to paint fast enough, by replacing me with someone faster, overall output (frames/sec) can more easily be increased. You on the other hand will have to find a faster driver, a better route, a more competent easel assembler to increase. Much more work, and if you unknowingly hire a material purchaser that is red/green color blind, or an easel assembler that prefers nails VS screws, you may incur an unforseen problem (bug) that may be harder to solve, or may not decrease the time to get you your materials. 

Remember, your job is really last. 

Haha, I love this explanation!  It's perfect 👍.  Hopefully Akita will understand this explanation 😁

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

26 minutes ago, OneOfMany said:

In simple terms. 

I want to paint a picture. You want to paint a picture. You can paint the actual picture faster than me with your faster rendering engine. 

Yet I can still get the picture painted before you are done. How? 

My store to buy the brushes and paint is closer, therefore I have my materials before you. I am faster at setting up my easel so I can start painting before you. 

So I might be three quarters done painting my picture before you even start. Even though you paint faster than me, it is not fast enough to finish your painting before mine is finished, and I am already getting another canvas on the easel, with new materials purchased. You can't start painting until you finish, then you still have to acquire and setup for your next masterpiece. 

My acquisition and setup layers are more optimized. 

Of course in these multi layer software programs, we both have others buying the materials and setting up the canvas for us. I am always painting, you are often waiting. If I paint at a speed a lot slower than you, your production may outstrip mine, and my output will be less than yours as I will have materials piling up waiting to be used, so I will just skip a few of my intended paintings, discard the materials purchased and produce less per day. (fps) You will use all your materials and produce more than me for that day. 

If I now simply increase my painting speed (optimize my rendering engine) than my daily output will increase. Unfortunately, for you to increase your output you will have to get your materials and setup processes more optimized to do so.

Ultimately, if I am unable to paint fast enough, by replacing me with someone faster, overall output (frames/sec) can more easily be increased. You on the other hand will have to find a faster driver, a better route, a more competent easel assembler to increase. Much more work, and if you unknowingly hire a material purchaser that is red/green color blind, or an easel assembler that prefers nails VS screws, you may incur an unforseen problem (bug) that may be harder to solve, or may not decrease the time to get you your materials. 

Remember, your job is really last. 

 

 

I know all of this and talked about it even in this very thread; the whole shift to Vulkan resulted in an overhaul for the entire rendering engine up to current standarts *excluding* whatever is rendered and it's quality. So to use your comment, what mostly remains for it is to mostly use prettier and of a better quality paints that sets and lasts better (i.e. fancy shaders on the GPU) 🙂

What I'm failing to comprehend is how some one who does not know what the actual bottleneck is claim for it to be a problem with a very outdated "layers" in a confident manner, hence, I asked to be specific.

 

Anyway anyone want to proceed the discussion, lets just move to the apropriate section in avsim.

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by akita

Yawn...what was an interesting question has been hijacked by the usual people to their own ends who then start bickering amongst themselves. Time to lock this thread me think.

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by sanh

35 minutes ago, akita said:

What I'm failing to comprehend is how some one who does not know what the actual bottleneck is claim for it to be a problem with a very outdated "layers" in a confident manner, hence, I asked to be specific.

 

So no one knows exactly the architecture used by MSFS or X-Plane, aside from the internal employees of those companies.  Having said that, there are common practices used by modern software development practices, such as "layers."   Also, if you carefully read my writing, again and again, I use the word "assume," "probably," "unlikely" in my very first response to you: 

 

Quote

very outdated "layers"

I did not use the word "outdated."  Please don't put words in my mouth.  The term I used was "older architecture":

In general, for older architecture that is continually built on top of, "technical debt" will accumulate over time (yes, that word, "technical debt" again which you refuse to read up on).

One more thing.  Another software engineer, Gulfstream, came to the same conclusion that I came to:

Gulfstream probably does not have inside information on the exact "layers" and architecture of X-Plane either.  But how did Gulfstream, who is a software engineer, come to the same conclusion that I came to?  

 

 

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

32 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

 

 

..

 

I've answered there, let's move it where it belongs.

1 hour ago, akita said:

know all of this and talked about it even in this very thread; the whole shift to Vulkan resulted in an overhaul for the entire rendering engine up to current standarts *excluding* whatever is rendered and it's quality

The rendering engine you keep referring to as being overhauled is the "last" step! The game engine must do all of the calculations of location, weather conditions, flight input, atmospheric conditions, inputting controller changes, inputting viewport, calculating ai and real time and other player locations, updating gauges, calculating fuel load, changes of cog,... all before rendering what you see. This is the optimization being spoken of. 

1 hour ago, akita said:

I know all of this

Of course you do.

 

1 hour ago, sanh said:

Yawn...what was an interesting question has been hijacked by the usual people to their own ends who then start bickering amongst themselves. Time to lock this thread me think.

Why? The question has been answered.

• If a PC can run XP, it can run MSFS.
• MSFS will likely run better than XP (more fps and better graphics).
• Prediction done.

So why not chat a bit more about the topic?

Edited September 11, 20214 yr by rka