Xplane Next Generation (FSexpo)

[mSparks 2,086]

9 hours ago, David Mills said:

Check out the repetitiveness of the X-Plane 12 autogen. I've circled only a small number of the repeating elements.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NYONCPOG-6ZuMzyNieOYNOaw

 

Yeah, look, it was even worse in XP11.  every city but especially that NYC shot with building after building. You can even see the bridge in the distance, and no one wants that right.

🤪

Edited September 28, 2021 by mSparks

[HiFlyer 9,360]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:22 PM, mSparks said:

Without a single hint of:

Latecomer jumping in then right back out.

Just want to point out that if one doesn't like photogrammetry, you can always turn it off. (which I often do)

At which point you get a world that, when a friend asked me what MSFS looked like (Without photogrammetry) I answered "Like Xplanes plausible world, perfected".

[mSparks 2,086]

19 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

"Like Xplanes plausible world, perfected".

yep. "perfection"

Like that doctor who episode with lady Cassendra Obrien, its the future I tell you.

Rest of us got bored of that a while ago, and just want to practice real world ops without the drama queens.

 

 

[HiFlyer 9,360]

I thought your previous photo might be a bit Cherry picked and this kind of confirms it. All right, I'm out!

 

[mSparks 2,086]

15 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

I thought your previous photo might be a bit Cherry picked and this kind of confirms it. All right, I'm out!

 

Just what I've collected over the last year or so.

XP11 already does:

"perfectly".

"Like that, but with a POS flight model" really isn't as interesting to us as some people seem to think. But that doesn't mean we dont want and expect better from XP12.

Edited September 28, 2021 by mSparks

[Sims Smith 302]

Don't underestimate auto gen from X-Plane.   This is old X-Plane 11 KADS Addison Texas approaching.   Imagine how good this will look in X-Plane 12 with lighting correction, better auto gen building and more in-depth OSM.

 

Plugin used Ortho4XP (free), Reshade (free), Noaa for XP (free), and xAmerica (free) + few payware Global Forest and Enhanced CloudScape. 

[BostonJeremy77 519]

Honestly, I don't think Ortho is really the be-all-end-all. I know there is Ortho4XP where you can get that and there is also Orbx TrueEarth for certain regions. I find both to be tedious in the case of Ortho4XP and space-prohibitive in the case of TrueEarth. I have MSFS for that. I don't need another MSFS. I am perfectly happy flying in XP using default scenery because I use it in a very different way than MSFS. Lately, I have also been VERY impressed with the way my Prepar3D looks with Orbx Global Range and Regions (but NO TrueEarth, because of space)... I have 3 sims on my machine. All are split between a 500GB internal SSD and a 1TB external SSD. I have a LOT of aircraft in all sims. It just wouldn't make any sense for me to try and chase ortho everywhere. Like I said, I already have MSFS for that. With Orbx Global Range and Regions, my P3D looks just as good, if not better from above than MSFS. Actually, I am flying it today, it DOES look better. So, I don't actually need all that stuff. 

Austin has repeatedly said that he doesn't think it's the answer. Better autogen and landclass/vector/mesh can go a LONG way. So, in a way, I am pretty happy that XP is just taking a different direction altogether. When you can't compete in one implementation of something, the answer is not to half-word not allowed it. The answer is to improve in other ways and get it to feel and look good without something that only Microsoft has the resources to pull off. So, that's my take. I really don't need ortho everywhere - it would take away valuable local storage that I'd rather use for having a lot of great aircraft. Most of my XP flying is in airliners. Just how much detail do I really need? For when I choose to do an occasional low-and-slow, I find the default scenery even in XP11 to be passable. 

[mSparks 2,086]

42 minutes ago, BostonJeremy77 said:

I have a LOT of aircraft in all sims. It just wouldn't make any sense for me to try and chase ortho everywhere.

My personal opinion is most people don't actually understand the differences between Autogen and Ortho.

XP11 (default) has

2d autogen textures + 3D autogen buildings

MSFS has

2D ortho photo + 3D autogen buildings + 3D orthogrammetry where available.

___

3D orthogrammetry (the USP of MSFS) is completely inferior than 3D autogen buildings which is why most people turn it off.

2d autogen textures are completely inferior to 2D ortho photo which is why some people think MSFS has "better scenery".

___

Additionally, most people, when using Ortho4XP, use the 3D autogen buildings Ortho4XP can generate from OSM data (aka y overlays) - these are generally inferior to xplanes default 3D autogen buildings, and its "non obvious" that Ortho4XP can use xplanes default 3D autogen buildings instead. 

For the most part xplane 11s 3D autogen buildings are already better than any other sim, and about to get even more upgrades (see the scenery section of the presentation)

Edited September 28, 2021 by mSparks

[abrams_tank 7,424]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

My personal opinion is most people don't actually understand the differences between Autogen and Ortho.

XP11 (default) has

2d autogen textures + 3D autogen buildings

MSFS has

2D ortho photo + 3D autogen buildings + 3D orthogrammetry where available.

___

3D orthogrammetry (the USP of MSFS) is completely inferior than 3D autogen buildings which is why most people turn it off.

2d autogen textures are completely inferior to 2D ortho photo which is why some people think MSFS has "better scenery".

___

 

Putting aside your definitions, I can tell you my experience with MSFS satellite & photogrammetry streaming (including the conversion of 2D satellite buildings/houses by Blackshark AI into 3D buildings/houses in MSFS).

I almost always have the streaming for Bing set to "On" when I fly in MSFS because I have a decent internet connection.  When I fly around metro Seattle, it's simply amazing how Seattle looks, since metro Seattle has a lot of photogrammetry.  I have been to Seattle many times before so flying over Seattle in MSFS and seeing how real it looks is just breathtaking. I just hope that more cities get photogrammetry so those cities can look like metro Seattle in MSFS.

In addition, after the last World Update for Germany, photogrammetry was added for many German cities, and the photogrammetry was actually an upgrade from the existing MSFS photogrammetry.  A lot of Germany fliers in MSFS are really, really, happy with the new photogrammetry in Germany.  I suppose when they did the World Update for Germany, Microsoft/Asobo was able to get their hands on even higher quality photogrammetry data.

Perhaps the main bottleneck with satellite streaming & photogrammetry is your internet connection and bandwidth.  A poor internet connection can lead to the "melted look" of buildings in MSFS.  It's something that I don't really experience because my internet connection probably above average compared to some other MSFS users.  Having said that, if you have rolling cache set in MSFS, I believe MSFS will cache the satellite & photogrammetry data so that if you fly the same area again, the data will be cached so the chance of you seeing the "melted look" of buildings will be a lot lower.  Plus, you can manually cache an area that you frequently fly in, which can further eliminate the "melted look" of buildings.

What does all this have to do with XP12?  In my earlier posts, one of the features I wanted for a future version of XP is perhaps if a 3rd party is allowed to offer the streaming of satellite & photogrammetry into XP, with a company like Blackshark AI to convert 2D satellite data into 3D objects, as a 3rd party paid service in XP (hopefully, the annual cost can be kept reasonable).  I know that Austin is on record as saying he doesn't want this in XP, which is unfortunate.  I am holding out for a small hope that perhaps while Austin may frown upon LR providing such a service, perhaps he may be open to a 3rd party providing such a service, if it can be done feasibly and if the cost can be reasonable (having said that, I understand that it may not be possible to do it at this time, even by a 3rd party, and that Austin has looked into this issue before).

My overall thoughts on satellite streaming & photogrammetry, with the conversion of 2D satellite objects into 3D objects by a company like Blackshark AI, is that we are already at a good starting point today, given the average internet connection speed, and the satellite & photogrammetry data available.  In the future, everyone's internet connection will probably improve, and the photogrammetry data obtained will be even better (ie. the case of Germany in the last World Update).  And this technology is a huge benefit to flight simulation.

Perhaps right now, one of the biggest obstacles for this being implemented in XP is because so few companies have this data and capability for the home consumer market (ie. Microsoft and Google being the two companies I can think of).  But I can tell you that other game companies are taking notice of this.  If this technology can be refined further so that everything looks good at street level and the resolution is higher at street level, I can imagine a game company would like to use this technology for a GTA style game.  And not just game companies may be interested in this, but perhaps there are other non-game companies out there that would like to model the world using satellite & photogrammetry data the way MSFS has modeled it.  So my intuition is, if there is enough demand for having the world modeled with satellite & photogrammetry data the way MSFS has modeled it, either Microsoft and Google eventually offer this as some type of service, or if they don't, another company steps it to offer such a service.  I think this technology of modelling the world is just going to become higher in demand as other companies want to use it, and it's going to become more widespread, and more and more game companies (and even non-game companies) are going to use it in the future. 

So what may not be possible today for XP, may be possible tomorrow.  This is definitely something that flight simulators in the future (be it MSFS, XP, P3D, DCS, or any future flight simulator) would want to take advantage of if it becomes more widely available, at a cost effective price - and I believe this technology will become more widely available in the future, based on my comments above.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by abrams_tank

[mSparks 2,086]

31 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

including the conversion of 2D satellite buildings/houses by Blackshark AI into 3D buildings/houses in MSFS

Example? No idea what you are talking about. As far as I know pretty much every global airport except a select few in MSFS needs buying separately. Sure I would have heard if that had changed.

31 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

after the last World Update for Germany, photogrammetry was added for many German cities

photogrammetry has too many problems for any kind of "serious" use case.

1. It looks horrific from up close

2. It kills frames and pop in/out is horrible from far away

3. It takes a long time to download, in the meantime you are stuck in garbage scenery.

4. Most of the photogrammetry they have added are in restricted airspace you would never fly in real life.

These issues are what Austin is talking about when he says he has no interest in wasting time on it.

31 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

I almost always have the streaming for Bing set to "On" when I fly

Google ortho in XP11 is far superior to Bing in MSFS. Which we already have (GO provider in Ortho4XP)

lvl16 Ortho + decals takes up hardly any space so doesn't need streaming

and is superior all the way up and also down to any safe altitude compared to autogen 2d textures

(this monstrosity)

31 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

What does all this have to do with XP12?  In my earlier posts, one of the features I wanted for a future version of XP is perhaps if a 3rd party is allowed to offer the streaming of satellite & photogrammetry into XP

See above, these are already not XP11 issues, and making them default would push the cost of XP up considerably for no good reason.

XP11 scenery suffers because the good 3D assets are lit/shadowed and reflected poorly, the main assets haven't had an overhaul for something like a decade (because it isn't _really_ needed) and the weather simulation is a best effort with the data that was available at the time. Things that will be fixed in XP12, see the presentation.

Edited September 28, 2021 by mSparks

[abrams_tank 7,424]

15 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Example? No idea what you are talking about. As far as I know pretty much every global airport except a select few in MSFS needs buying separately. Sure I would have heard if that had changed.

From my understanding, Blackshark AI will analyze the houses and buildings in 2D satellite data, and convert them into 3D objects for the world in MSFS. The conversion isn't perfect of course and your house in MSFS may not look exactly like it does in real life, if MSFS only has 2D satellite data for your house and not photogrammetry.  But it's not too bad, given the technology they have today, and you will get a rough outline of your neighborhood in MSFS, as it would look in real life.  

 

Quote

photogrammetry has too many problems for any kind of "serious" use case.

No.  Stop there.  I just told you that when I fly over metro Seattle in MSFS, it's amazing, especially the residential neighborhoods with photogrammetry in metro Seattle.  

Edited September 28, 2021 by abrams_tank

[tonywob 4,769]

Topic locked, another discussion turned pointless.