4 hours ago, ark said:

For takeoff and in flight, should the condition lever be at the High Idle setting, or all the way forward?

We've got our (quick!) answer! This was my question to the missionairy bush pilot:

It seems you always set the condition lever exactly where the high idle marker is and never push it fully forward to the stop. Is that correct? In the POH I only read about setting the lever to the high idle position but it's not clear if they mean that marker (where you set it) or that range (like fully forward). Any reason why you seem to use that exact position and never push it fully forward?

And the missionairy bush pilot answered this:

Because the way these are rigged, that is are far forward as it goes. They don't have a hard stop

So 1. he DOES actually push the lever fully forward and 2. either SWS didn't model this correctly or it is dependant on the Kodiak you received from the factory. I think it's the former. But it could also be due to how a mechanic set this up.

Anyway, I am back to how I used the lever until now: full forward it is for full power! Just like the missionairy bush pilot does. Which makes sense. Why hold back power if you have it available!

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by tup61

15 minutes ago, tup61 said:

We've got our (quick!) answer! This was my question to the missionairy bush pilot:

It seems you always set the condition lever exactly where the high idle marker is and never push it fully forward to the stop. Is that correct? In the POH I only read about setting the lever to the high idle position but it's not clear if they mean that marker (where you set it) or that range (like fully forward). Any reason why you seem to use that exact position and never push it fully forward?

And the missionairy bush pilot answered this:

Because the way these are rigged, that is are far forward as it goes. They don't have a hard stop

So 1. he DOES actually push the lever fully forward and 2. either SWS didn't model this correctly or it is dependant on the Kodiak you received from the factory. I think it's the former. But it could also be due to how a mechanic set this up.

Anyway, I am back to how I used the lever until now: full forward it is for full power! Just like the missionairy bush pilot does. Which makes sense. Why hold back power if you have it available!

I still disagree. What he is saying is that the cable to the lever only allows the  lever to go to the high idle mark and no further. So he pushes on it to it's most forward position which is the high idle setting. There is no more power even if one  could push the lever all the way to the firewall. The fuel control which the lever moves, can only go so far, which is it's the fuel controls high idle position. 

BTW , I saw another Kodiak Pilot video today with a different pilot flying , and he set the condition lever to the high idle mark when he took off. 

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by Bobsk8

30 minutes ago, tup61 said:

It seems you always set the condition lever exactly where the high idle marker is and never push it fully forward to the stop. Is that correct? In the POH I only read about setting the lever to the high idle position but it's not clear if they mean that marker (where you set it) or that range (like fully forward). Any reason why you seem to use that exact position and never push it fully forward?

And the missionairy bush pilot answered this:

Because the way these are rigged, that is are far forward as it goes. They don't have a hard stop

Thanks for the feedback!

My interpretation of the above is the condition lever has been rigged not to go past the High Idle position because the lever is not supposed to go past that point. They apparently are preventing the pilot from pushing the lever all the way up even in an emergency, so I assume there is a good reason for that. Maybe flying with the lever all the way up shortens engine life, or there is some other engine consideration.

But I still find it interesting that the throttle quadrant is built, as the Bush Pilot says, with no hard stop above the condition lever High Idle position. Maybe that "extra" range would be used with an engine mod or some other engine.

Al

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by ark

11 minutes ago, ark said:

Thanks for the feedback!

My interpretation of the above is the condition lever has been rigged not to go past the High Idle position because the lever is not supposed to go past that point. They apparently are preventing the pilot from pushing the lever all the way up even in an emergency, so I assume there is a good reason for that. Maybe flying with the lever all the way up shortens engine life, or there is some other engine consideration.

Al

The lever apparently connects to a cable, which controls the fuel valve. The valve apparently has a maximum range of movement of high idle. Once the valve reaches it's high idle position, it can't move any further. That means the cable can't move any further either, and the rigger sets that position so that the condition lever is on it's high idle mark at that point. 

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by Bobsk8

19 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

The lever apparently connects to a cable, which controls the fuel valve. The valve apparently has a maximum range of movement of high idle. Once the valve reaches it's high idle position, it can't move any further. That means the cable can't move any further either, and the rigger sets that position so that the condition lever is on it's high idle mark. 

We can surmise why the condition lever can't move past the High Idle point (a fuel valve and/or cable limitation or whatever), but what I now find interesting is why do they build it so there is a lot more "lever room" above the high idle position? Maybe the position of the High Idle "rigged stop" depends on some possible engine differences (different fuel valves, etc).

Interesting discussion.

Al

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by ark

Just now, ark said:

We can surmise why the condition lever can't move past the High Idle point (a fuel valve and/or cable limitation or whatever), but what I now find interesting is why do they build it so there is a lot more "lever room" above the high idle position? Maybe the position of the "rigged stop" depends on some possible engine differences (different fuel valves, etc).

Interesting discussion.

Al

probably the housing that handles the power, Prop, and condition lever, is one size for all three levers, so the fuel control only needs half that movement. 

I think SWS didn't model this correctly (physically). The lever in the simulated Kodiak CAN move further than in the real world Kodiak. The max NG on ground at high idle should be 70% and the SWS version can only get there if you set the lever full forward. The lever also has the same physical stop as the other levers. I think we shouldn't be able to set the lever higher than the high idle mark and NG should reach 70 max in that position. So SWS should have another look at this. 😉

1 hour ago, Bobsk8 said:

The lever apparently connects to a cable, which controls the fuel valve. The valve apparently has a maximum range of movement of high idle. Once the valve reaches it's high idle position, it can't move any further. That means the cable can't move any further either, and the rigger sets that position so that the condition lever is on it's high idle mark at that point. 

The point is that we simmers CAN move the lever further. That shouldn't be possible. You could say that SWS put the rigger in the wrong position. Apparently no real world pilot can move that lever beyond the high idle mark so neither should we be able to do so. 

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by tup61

1 hour ago, Bobsk8 said:

There is no more power even if one  could push the lever all the way to the firewall

In the simulated Kodiak there clearly is more power. Position yourself for take off and set the lever at the high idle mark. Then push it fully forward and notice the very obvious difference. 

1 hour ago, ark said:

We can surmise why the condition lever can't move past the High Idle point

As posted above, we CAN move past that point... That's the problem here and imho SWS made a mistake here. 

Would be nice if we could find a video from the bush pilot with a close up of the ND at the moment he starts his take off so we can check the NG at the moment of full power while still standing still on the ground! 

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by tup61

1 minute ago, tup61 said:

As posted above, we CAN move past that point... That's the problem here and imho SWS made a mistake here. 

I was referring to the real world a/c in the above statement. I know WE can move the condition lever past the high idle point, which is why I raised the original question. I run my controls through FSUIPC7, so I'm going to see if I can set things up on the condition lever axis to limit the lever movement in the cockpit to the High Idle point.

Al

When you rig the condition lever ( as a mechanic, not as a pilot) you run the engine and position the condition lever to the proper spot that results in the proper High Idle value. You then adjust the mechanical stop to prevent the lever from advancing further. That way when the pilot advances the lever as far as it will go (to the adjusted mechanical stop) the engine should be at the proper high idle. As a result, the position forward will vary with each engine installation.

4 minutes ago, ark said:

I was referring to the real world a/c in the above statement. I know WE can move the condition lever past the high idle point, which is why I raised the original question. I run my controls through FSUIPC7, so I'm going to see if I can set things up on the condition lever axis to limit the lever movement in the cockpit to the High Idle point.

Al

Ah, lol, okay. But well, the questions remains if limiting the movement will give you real world power like during take off. I can't check it right now but in this video you can see NG rising above 70 pretty quickly will in the sim NG I remember NG being lower with the lever at the high idle mark. I think full forward comes closer to what I see on the bush pilot's screen. 

 

26 minutes ago, GACSavannah said:

When you rig the condition lever ( as a mechanic, not as a pilot) you run the engine and position the condition lever to the proper spot that results in the proper High Idle value. You then adjust the mechanical stop to prevent the lever from advancing further. That way when the pilot advances the lever as far as it will go (to the adjusted mechanical stop) the engine should be at the proper high idle. As a result, the position forward will vary with each engine installation.

Exactly. That's what I am trying to say. And the SWS Kodiak has it's mechanical stop at the full forward position and NOT at the mark. During installation max NG should be 70 and the SWS Kodiak only reaches 70 with the lever fully forward. At the high idle mark NG hovers around 58 or so. 

So... real high idle in this Kodiaks can only be obtained with the lever fully forward.

EDIT

To be more precise: NG should be max 68 to 72% while doing the rigging (if that's how you say it). It can all be found in this document: https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/uploads/doi-kodiak-engineruns-rigging-tr01.pdf On page 16 it talks about that 68 to 72 NG max for high idle. You won't reach that number with the lever halfway at the mark in the simulated Kodiak. Only fully forward does the trick.

Edited January 16, 20224 yr by tup61

8 minutes ago, tup61 said:

During installation max NG should be 70 and the SWS Kodiak only reaches 70 with the lever fully forward. At the high idle mark NG hovers around 58 or so. 

With the throttle at idle and the condition lever at High Idle, I see a NG of about 63. If I move the condition lever all the way up I get an NG of about 72. So we do need to know what the NG should be at High Idle with the throttle at Idle.

Al