>>I noticed that no one commented on my use of pirated addons.>>>I'm not going to explain it all over again, but basically I>>use them to determine whether I'll buy something or not. >>Do you steal a car and use if for a couple weeks to see if you>like it too? Lets be honest here...you are boosting the>software so you don't have to pay for it. Plain and simple.>>RobStealing a car to 'test it out' isn't a valid comparison because you CAN take a car out on a test drive.. which is what my entire point has been about thus far.

>To Jeff and anyone else thinking that I'm some warez junkie,>> I don't download from any websites or anything. I have a>friend who is also a MSFS developer. He happens to 1) have a>lot more money than me ( single, where as I'm married with 2>kids ), and 2) has a lot of free time. Most of the time, I>just go to his house and check something out, but being as my>computer isn't quite as state-of-the-art as his, he will often>take 15 minutes ( since he knows the common security systems,>it takes him all of 15 - 20 minutes to circumvent it, so it's>not like it's even a huge inconvenience for him ) out of his>time to crack it and let me check it out at home. That's called software sharing. It's also known as software piracy, and a violation of every copyright law on the books...sorry.I'm afraid you, and others who do the same thing, are the reason why we are stuck with these tought anti-piracy measures to begin with.Rob

>That's called software sharing. It's also known as software>piracy, and a violation of every copyright law on the>books...sorry.>>I'm afraid you, and others who do the same thing, are the>reason why we are stuck with these tought anti-piracy measures>to begin with.>>RobAye Rob, I never said it wasn't a form of piracy. I was refuting the point of me aiding those hacker/piracy sites and such.

Flight1 does not sell our products, we do. We only use their wrapper service so I don't beleive the 30 day guarantee applies.Our refund policy only applies to products which are defective and will not work. We have only encountered maybe 2 or 3 in the 3 or so years that we have been in business.We do not offer refunds for people who just decide they don't like it anymore. That's utterly rediculous and just asking for us or anyone else to refund every single sale they've ever made. It's an open invitation for people to take advantage of the situation.We are not Time-Life here. If you want a guarantee buy a stinking toaster.The bottom line is if you can run FS then you can run our products.

Worked, up, probably yes, because I feel you are condoning the illegal trafficking/cracking and use of software and other media by your own admission. See your above posts. I don't think I took anything out of context.And it is black and white.Edit: You also didn't answer my other question: What about my other developer friends. Are they safe?

Listening to the tone your repsonding to people in really makes me want to stay away from OSS products Jeff. It might actually help your sales some if you didn't make it sound like your the almighty oracle explaining the kids whats right and wrong here.Try and lighten up a bit. Not everyone debating the pro and cons of piracy is a pirate just cause your seem to think you know better.Thomas

Try to lighten up? Are you kidding me?I didn't say everyone debating the pros and cons of piracy is a pirate. We just had a couple people say right here that they have. Can you not read?I'm also going to be very stiff when it comes to the metality that some people still think it's ok 'under circumstances', when in fact IT IS NEVER OK.If that makes you want to stay away from us then so be it. There is no grey area here. Why can't people simply understand that?As far as my tone, if you don't want me to treat you like a kid then don't act like it. I'm not going to be politically correct here. I never have for that matter. If that puts me at risk for loosing a few sales then so be it.

>Try to lighten up? Are you kidding me?>>I didn't say everyone debating the pros and cons of piracy is>a pirate. >>We just had a couple people say right here that they have. >Can you not read?>>I'm also going to be very stiff when it comes to the metality>that some people still think it's ok 'under circumstances',>when in fact IT IS NEVER OK.>>If that makes you want to stay away from us then so be it. >There is no grey area here. Why can't people simply>understand that?>>As far as my tone, if you don't want me to treat you like a>kid then don't act like it. >>I'm not going to be politically correct here. I never have>for that matter. If that puts me at risk for loosing a few>sales then so be it.>>You see thats excactly the tone I'm talking about. Did my reply to you in any way imply I agreed with the user that there wa s agrey zone or not? I'm refeering to your "kiddo" and other degrading comments to people you reply to like your assuming your the older wiser guy explaining the kid's when most of us in this forums proberbly were programing before you could even spell piracy.All people are doing is point out the different angels of both sides and you should as an addult be able to reply and speak your case without that sort of degrading use of words.Funny enough I was one of the first replying to this thread giving my view on original posters comment based on a survey we made a few months ago and not one....not one has even commented it even though that survey clearly speaks against many of the things you imply. As I also stated in that post I didn't say that survey ofcourse showed the whole truth but it sure does give some to think about.You need to read what people write insted of only hearing what your want to hear out of a persons posts, then maybe, just maybe people might actually take notice insted.I can understand your passionate about this subject cause we are in a flightsim forum and you have something riding on this especially here. And reading this thread is quite interresting, but it gives you a bad taste when you see this sort of tone when the majority seem to be able to have a calm conversation about the subject.Thomas

Well, there's not use in us debating the finer points of forum speak here, because we're just not going to agree.We'll just have to agree that you don't like me...lol. I can live with that if you can.Edit: And if you think I'm that young, then thank you for the compliment.

"I never said it wasn't a form of piracy. I was refuting the point of me aiding those hacker/piracy sites and such."Jeff, what you don't seem to understand is by coming into the forums and publicly rationalizing your reasons for using software outside of the restrictions of a license, you are aiding piracy. You're publicly arguing for a reason that "validates" your breaking the law. I have no doubt that some here will view your public rationale as all they need to do the same. You and others may argue that's not condoning piracy, but it is. I also don't care if your buddy is Bill Gates himself--whoever he is (assuming he's not an invention to reinforce very shaky ground) he is also condoning the practice. In this thread you've cited a bunch of reasons for the practice, "try before you buy", financial, etc--I am not even sure which one of them is your primary reason. None of them justify breaking the law. The law isn't a gray area, but having sat on juries I can tell you I hear that one a lot. Now I don't think sitting here saying "I'm gonna get ya'" makes a lot of sense. Yet I don't have any MSFS add-ons for sale, either. I don't have to respect people who find excuses to evade restrictions the vast majority of members here try to abide by. I have several add-ons I purchased with a no refund policy that I wish I hadn't. Instead of evading the law, I just learned to apply more research and take the time to place more posts in the forum when something catches my eye. Look over my build up of questions before I bought USA Roads--and that was from a vendor with a refund policy. It didn't cost me a dime to ask.Anyway, if any point is to be made from all this, the only way to convince vendors to offer demos of their products is to quit participating in efforts to evade their product protection. My home was broken into several years ago--I don't leave my doors unlocked today so I can help some poor crook out. I made our home more secure and that's what the vendors are doing. One or two vendors already have suggested use of malicious payloads in an effort to place pirates on guard (Lago at least suggested it once when people were cracking their Ultralight package). I don't think a vendor is going to be prosecuted for wiping the contents of someone's MSFS install if that person tried to use their product illegally. After all, isn't that a "victimless" crime too?-John

It has nothing to do with if I like you or not. I don't know you so I can't have an opinion on that. It was just a notice I made reading through the posts. I got all the respect in the world for you, your company and the products you make. All I'm saying is we CAN discuss this without name calling or degrading talk in any way. People will listen to you much more if you make your point without calling them a "kid" or other sorts of degrading wordings.Don't let you own involvment as a developer take control of how you treat people who are potential customers even if they don't excactly see things the way you do. People DO argue an arguement sometimes just for the sake of having a possitive discussion. I know I do. I very often speak the case of something that I might not agree on but I do it to get all possible angles out in the open and hear peoples view on them.And no matter if you like peoples view or not, at least respect them for coming out and discussing them openly with you and others. You can only learn something about the subject and other people that way.Thomas

Well, all I can say is that I felt the situation warranted a little harsher and more stern approach due to the admissions directly coming out by certain posters. If you read them a little more, then maybe you'll understand. Then again maybe the replies got shifted down but not to a point where they shouldn't have been understood.Maybe that's the ex-military side of me coming out, but that's me, like it or not. I'm certainly not going to apologize either.

>Flight1 does not sell our products, we do. We only use their>wrapper service so I don't beleive the 30 day guarantee>applies.>>Our refund policy only applies to products which are defective>and will not work. We have only encountered maybe 2 or 3 in>the 3 or so years that we have been in business.>>We do not offer refunds for people who just decide they don't>like it anymore. That's utterly rediculous and just asking>for us or anyone else to refund every single sale they've ever>made. It's an open invitation for people to take advantage of>the situation.>>We are not Time-Life here. If you want a guarantee buy a>stinking toaster.>>The bottom line is if you can run FS then you can run our>products.I think this is more than reasonable. I simply don't see how anyone can expect to receive refunds on software at a whim. Nowhere else do you get such terms. Software sales are generally considered final.Rob

>Listening to the tone your repsonding to people in really>makes me want to stay away from OSS products Jeff. It might>actually help your sales some if you didn't make it sound like>your the almighty oracle explaining the kids whats right and>wrong here.>Try and lighten up a bit. Not everyone debating the pro and>cons of piracy is a pirate just cause your seem to think you>know better.>>>ThomasI think you might look at it from a different perspective if it was your pocket they were picking Thomas. Try walking a mile in his shoes. I imagine if you had people trying to constantly take some of your income away you would be royally pi**ed,Rob

>Actaully no, I haven't bought a pirated movie. I would never>stand for the quality and since my uncle is a Hollywood>producer I don't think he'd like that. Besides which we get>all the pre-academy movies for review anyways.>>And I was also to lazy to tape anything to show my friends for>another thing.>>Besides which there is a big difference there. If you taped a>movie and charged people to watch it then you deserve to go to>jail.>>I doubt you charged people for yout tapes, right?? I thought>so.>>AT no time have I said that I have pirated a movie.At the end of the day, people like PMDG, LVLD and Dreamfleet don't need to offer money back because their products are excellent and without problems for me.When I purchase their products, I know they are going to be good.Other less known software does need 'demo,s' so that they can hopefully rise to the previously mentioned trusted suppliers.To Jeff N,Please don't accuse me, in your ranting of being a pirate, you could well end up in court.