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Guest Daniel Pimentel

Is everyone a software pirate?

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It's cut and dry for me, if someone is going to do this sort of thing, they are NOT my friend, they hurt me and the community by doing this, they have no morals and this hurts everyone in the long run.It's everyones obligation to do what they can to stop this kind of thing.It's plain ans simple, a developer spends months on a project and loses half it's sales to some idiot losers that host and share the files, what happens? The developer either quites, enables some crazy anti piracy scheme that makes it a pain for normal users or charges even more for the product, thus hurting you and I.Personally I feel these types of pirates and hackers should be shot in public to get the point acress.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/tfbeta.jpg

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If someone is a pirate, I won't deal with them unless it's strictly necessary on a professional level.Sadly even many software engineers are prolific pirates. Some even dare to ask you for pirated versions of tools used to protect software from being pirated so they can add anti-piracy protection to their own products.There is no excuse for piracy. If you can't pay the price for something, there are always cheaper alternatives.And even if not, there is no excuse. If I can't afford to buy a car it's not OK for me to steal one either...Problem is that law enforcement does little to operate against pirates, unless they're running it as a business in which case the operation is more to do with them not paying taxes than them breaking the law in dealing stolen property.

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Well I'm sure I willl stur up alot of emotions from alot of users by my input to this thread but here goes, first with a little information on what I do for a living.I'm one of those people who had a dream to become a pilot but life took me in a different direction and today I work for a big european think tank doing various statistics for organizations, like the European Union and others.So here goes.A while ago one of our departments was asked to make a survey looking into peoples minds and thoughts on piracy in general. Not just software but music and other sorts. Now I wasn't involved myself in this particular survey myself but the outcome of it was quite an interresting read.To sum it down short, what it showed was that 99% of the population in all of the countries involved which was a fairly devided between eastern and western countries and all layers of sociaty had present or had at some point pirated software installed on their computers.What was interresting about it was the fact that people had different views of when they considered themself of breaking the law.In most cases people had strong opinions on software or music beeing pirated if they where involved in anyway either by interrest or getting hurt money wise by it. But at the same time would have low morale when it came to software which didn't come under an interrest group they belonged to.Survey also showed that peoples morale online in forums or other places rarely reflected the actuall truth of what was on their computers.Basicly what I'm saying is that according to those statistics which should be taken very serious since they are quite large and show a pretty good picture of how reality are reflected by the population.99% of everyone in this thread and the people who will reply to this thread will have either other pirated software, music, or even fs addons sitting on their harddrive as they speak or have had within the past 6 months of some sort.So these kinda threads always put a smile on my face cause it's always fun to see how people are very moral in these forums when the subject come up. And I always think. Show me your drive and I might take this sort of threads seriously.Do I support piracy (And Im just giving you my honost opinion so keep it civic) No I don't, but have I ever had pirated software/music on my drive. Yes I have, Im no different from everyone else, so to sit here and tell you no I havn't would be rediculas.I prety much reflect what the statistic showed which is I have a huge interrest in fs addons so my interrest in the whole community's well beeing is alot bigger than it is in other areas where I don't spend so much time. I'll give you an example. I fly alot virtually, and my interrest in this area is alot bigger. I follow what goes on on fs sites, developers sites and support forums. I get a much more personalized view to this area which also reflects in the fact that I don't condone piracy in this field and pay for my addons. I don't listen to that much music except for in the car going to and from work on the radio, which because of lack of interrest makes me less interrested in the fact if me downloading a song online is illigal or not. Have I ever downloaded a song. Yes I have, but my interrest in music is so low that I wouldn't have purchased it if I were not available online. Is that an excuse. Absolutly not, I know it's wrong but I guess as a human we mostly take that way when we don't have a real interrest in the subject at hand.So you can ask yourself this question and our survey couln't give any definitive answer to the question and that is. Does developers/artists loose money from this piracy. I'm sure they do to some degree, but from what could also be taken from the survey was that the amount is relative since you have to take into account how many of the pirates would actually have purchased the software/music (talking in general here not just fs related) since interrest vs purchase surtainly had a big impact on the users opinion.Please don't take this as "I accept piracy" in any kind, just a reflection on my thoughts, especially when these thread apear which they do in these forums from time to time. And you always get the "a really excited user" based replies and ofcourse never actually see anyone saying. "Hey I really think piracy is good" replies. But statisticly there should be thousends of them in these forums. But to actually know who talk the talk but don't walk the walk as americans say it would take a peek into their harddrives.Thomas

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As someone who has paid for every addon I was surprised the other day when doing a search for an FS2004 addon to find that the 2nd site found by Google was a P2P pirating site. Surely Google should not be listing such sites. John

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As someone who actually bought all his FS Add-ons (the payware ones, mind you :) ), I would like to add a point which is a little against the "doom and gloom" predictions always associated to these discussions.I consider it a fact that most people who pirate software (including FS software) won't even buy it if they didn't have the possibility of getting it "for free", i.e., pirated.What that means is in conclusion, that add-on developers are not actually loosing money through piracy, or at least not an amount significant to their enterprise.What that also means is that there is little justification to overly agressive copy protection schemes, worst example of those being Starforce, but also some hair-raising ones within the FS community.All that does is to drive legitimate customers away from you (as the Starforce example again excellently shows), and THEN you loose money, not through piracy.Am I trying to justify piracy? Not in the least, but it surely is not worth all the hype people make over it.And in response to the first poster, no, I do not want developers to spy on me, no, I do not want to be unable to play a game just because I happen to have no internet connection, no, I do not want developers to mess with my soft- and hardware.The fact that all these things are already happening is at least as sad as the fact of piracy.Regards,Robert

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At last a post in this thread that makes some sense. Piracy is a problem but the draconian anti-piracy measures of some vendors is a far greater problem.Bruceb

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>I consider it a fact that most people who pirate software>(including FS software) won't even buy it if they didn't have>the possibility of getting it "for free", i.e., pirated.>>What that means is in conclusion, that add-on developers are>not actually loosing money through piracy, or at least not an>amount significant to their enterprise.>That is highly contested. In my opinion a good portion of those people WOULD have purchased the goods had they not gotten them illegally.That's easily indicated by the availability of pirated software (and music and movies) for sale at prices which sometimes come close to or exceed the price of the real thing.>What that also means is that there is little justification to>overly agressive copy protection schemes, worst example of>those being Starforce, but also some hair-raising ones within>the FS community.>All that does is to drive legitimate customers away from you>(as the Starforce example again excellently shows), and THEN>you loose money, not through piracy.>If you don't protect your intellectual property you loose your right to it.And with a good number of the remaining customers liable to choose pirated content if they had easier (and safer) access to it, your remark reeks of wishful thinking.>And in response to the first poster, no, I do not want>developers to spy on me, no, I do not want to be unable to>play a game just because I happen to have no internet>connection, no, I do not want developers to mess with my soft->and hardware.>The fact that all these things are already happening is at>least as sad as the fact of piracy.>If people didn't actively support pirates by screaming foul over even the most basic protection system and giving "backup copies" of their goods to everyone in town there'd be no need for such draconian systems.As that's currently the norm, such a need exists and unless the average consumer stops his/her blatant disregard for the property of others that need will continue to exist.

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I think most piracy is carried out by those in the IT industry anyway. That's why software developers needs such tight anti piracy measures.

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>That is highly contested. In my opinion a good portion of>those people WOULD have purchased the goods had they not>gotten them illegally.Your opinion, my opinion.I don't see your usual "crack 'em all" kid as the usual paying customer for a Level-D Sim 767.>That's easily indicated by the availability of pirated>software (and music and movies) for sale at prices which>sometimes come close to or exceed the price of the real>thing.You gotta show me pirated software which is sold at a price higher than the original...>If you don't protect your intellectual property you loose your>right to it.Yes of course, if you don't protect your borders, you loose your right to them.Doesn't justify dropping nuclear bombs left and right on mere suspicions of wrong-doing, if you catch my drift.>And with a good number of the remaining customers liable to>choose pirated content if they had easier (and safer) access>to it, your remark reeks of wishful thinking.You don't have easy and safe access to pirated software.The issues a great number of people have with unwanted pop-ups and viruses (now where could THESE come from, gee, I wonder) speak volumes about that, and that's not at all wishful thinking.>If people didn't actively support pirates by screaming foul>over even the most basic protection system and giving "backup>copies" of their goods to everyone in town there'd be no need>for such draconian systems.No, they don't scream foul, they simply stop buying the software, because they don't like it to mess with the hardware they OWN (e.g. Starforce), don't like it to mess it with software they have valid licenses for (e.g. protection schemes rendering burning programmes unusable), don't like it to intrude their privacy they have a right to.Yes there are people out there with blatant disregard for the property of commercial software developers, doesn't stop me as a paying customer to ask those same softrware developers for SOME regard of my property and my privacy.Regards,Robert

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Well, I've bought a ton of software, all legally and fully paid for. I have a notebook jammed full of documentation for each of them - User ID's, passwords, purchase numbers, order numbers, keys, authorization numbers, etc, etc. Everyone has a different protection scheme. The real test will come when I rebuild my PC later this year, and I'll see how much of this I can re-install. Any software vendor that even hints that I am a pirate in this process has lost me as a customer.As far this subject goes, anyone who pirates software, resulting in a loss to the vendor, is a thief, pure and simple. If someone buys a legitimate copy of software and chooses to use a "crack" to avoid having to put the original disk in the drive every time, I don't see a loss to the vendor. If someone uses the same "crack" to make working copies for his friends - well, that's stealing. It's all just common sense and decent values.Dale

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"I think most piracy is carried out by those in the IT industry anyway. That's why software developers needs such tight anti piracy measures."Hopefully you're just trying to get a good chuckle. Working in the IT industry, my peers are more concerned about having a legal license for the software they use, not less. They know that piracy is stealing more than the punk or bottom feeder who thinks of a hundred million ways to rationalize the act. I know my paycheck is diminished (or the potential of what it can be) every time someone finds a way to evade our copy protections. Also, since I work in an industry that is audited for license compliance--and I am audited at home as well as at work since I telecommute, attempting piracy is like attempting to use drugs when drug testing is used--it's not a smart idea.But whether anyone is watching or not, I feel piracy is stealing from my "brother" given my closeness to what they do. I think just about everyone who works around me in the industry feels the same way. There's many misconceptions about the IT industry. I think people envision a bunch of pimple faced nerds sitting at consoles playing games or dreaming of their first kiss. Most of my peers are experienced people of all walks of life and some of them pushing sixty and seventy--many like me arrived in the IT industry via other businesses, and became IT professionals due to our business knowledge and not due to our ability to hack into code or systems.Sorry to go off, just wanted to respond in case you WERE serious with this comment :)-John

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well said. Though piracy does exist in the industry it's limited to a relatively small section of the people working there.Mostly they're either the youngsters who've not been there long and are in their first job in a sheltered enviromnent (like custom software in a sector where piracy is almost nonexistent) or oldtimers who've been working on mainframe programming (an area where piracy is next to impossible) for the last 20-30 years, usually with the same company.Most of us who have worked in more than one company have seen the effects piracy has on companies and departments, many of us have seen friends and colleagues loose their jobs because of it.

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I think the majority of people that post against piracy are hypocrites, most of you have MP3s you didnt buy, software such as photoshop or 3DS Max (altho you claim to use the free GMax) and other software you didnt buy so it's all moot really.....if you own any MP3s you didnt buy then you have no right to say a word about people using addons they didnt buy......period

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"I think the majority of people that post against piracy are hypocrites, most of you have MP3s you didnt buy, software such as photoshop or 3DS Max (altho you claim to use the free GMax) and other software you didnt buy so it's all moot really.....if you own any MP3s you didnt buy then you have no right to say a word about people using addons they didnt buy......period"Ahhh--another common rationalization for piracy. Say everyone else is guilty of it so that makes it alright. Baloney--but I am not surprised to see the post.I believe if you went to most systems of the adults on this forum, you'll find the majority don't pirate mp3's and don't pirate the software you claim, or any other. And I believe if you went to many of the systems owned by the younger members here, you'd find the same would also be true. To suggest anything else or to go on a witchhunt of people condemning the practice is pretty poor etiquette in my opinion. -John

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This argument evidently swings both ways, and there are fierce advocates of both viewpoints. The reality of it is, piracy can't be stopped... No system is perfect. That's why developers must find a sensible balance between a system that is friendly for the buyers, and is secure enough to avoid the more "simple" forms of piracy (sending the file to the buddy). The Flight1 system is, in my opinion, the one that's achieved this best. And it offsets "intent to buy" issues with a money-back guarantee. Daniel P.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpgMember of SJU Photography. [A HREF=http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=9004]Click Here[/A] to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!The official psychotic AA painter. :)

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i think you have wrong view, not everyone is a pirate, ok i have to admit that i have many mp3's, but FS addons are different, i even got a credit card last year, to be able to buy all addons i want (before that i was only able to get addons from simmarket which accepts bank transactions and many other payment possibilities), i even drove to paderborn (100km's from my hometown) to the aerosoft base, just to be one of the firsts to get Mega Airport Frankfurt...

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>I believe if you went to most systems of the adults on this>forum, you'll find the majority don't pirate mp3's and don't>pirate the software you claim, or any other. And I believe if>you went to many of the systems owned by the younger members>here, you'd find the same would also be true.>-John I'd be willing to bet your wrong, there are a lot more FS pirates then you know or think or willing to admit........taking the word of those that frequent these forums (all FS forums) that say they dont pirate isnt giving you the truth, I've seen many many FS'ers that say publicly that they dont condone piracy and dont do it only to have them ask if I want to trade addons in private chats, and not just a few. Also the newsgroups, P2P, and many other forums for trading addons. No matter what a company does to prevent it (including flight1) there will always be someone that can crack it.....yes, even the wrappers can be cracked.

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"I'd be willing to bet your wrong,"Well, in spite of the fact that I don't agree with you there's nothing in the way you stated your reply to make me angry--so I guess we just have to agree we disagree.-John

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I look at all the add-ons I have and there are even some that make me think, what was I thinking.. In the end though I did buy them, except for the ones that I recieve for review purposes.. Piracy helps no one and only makes it harder for those who do it the right way to begin with.I came across one of those sites once in a google search and was amazed, though not surprised, that such a place existed... I never gave it any real thought as I never went looking for it.Computer hackers in general need to be dealt with as they serve no real purpose to the computing world and have only created the need for extra security.

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Whenever any 'right or wrong' thread comes up, why is there always someone that has quote the bible?In a respectful manner, I ask that you please keep religion out of this thread.Thanks.As far as the topic is concerned... I do not support piracy. I can not, however, say that I've never downloaded an MP3 or something similar. I have actually acquired a 'hacked' version of an FS addon or two, but on a trial basis. ( non-Flight1 :( ) On those particular items, I did purchase the ones I kept. I deleted the ones I didn't use ( I hate a cluttered FS/hard drive ). So, sometimes these pirated versions can come in handy. I have run into many addons that weren't worth $2, but they charged $30+. I'm glad I had the option to try them. As for Flight1, I love those guys, I've returned quite a few addons that I didn't like. I've kept more than I've returned though, so it's not like I'm just getting it, flying it until bored, then getting a refund. Not the case at all... I just refuse to spend so much money on a game only to find out it isn't worth the money. Bravo Flight1 ;)Anyhow, that's all I have to say about this subject.

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730 views in less than 24 hours but only 18 posts...Lots of interest in reading, but not much interest in participating... I think that actually says quite a lot given the subject matter.

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>>What that means is in conclusion, that add-on developers are>>not actually loosing money through piracy, or at least not>an>>amount significant to their enterprise.>>>That is highly contested.So is the Theory of Evolution. Just to add some sense of proportion here.Regards,http://www.bremmekamp.com/img/misc/avsim.jpg

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I think that when I hear people complaining about software protection, one fellow saying he won't buy anything that "phones home", I have to think they not only do not appreciate that people who are blantantly stealing and peddling copyrighted software on the Internet are directly causing harm to the people that worked hard to produce it, but also, that they are simply not in touch with reality. There is less and less software these days that is being sold on the "honor system" like it was for so many years. Just about everything I have bought lately uses some kind of protection system, and I don't blame them.Its easy for all of us to make speaches about "rights" and so forth. But it is stealing plain and simple and it does damage to real people. I would like it to be like it was in the good ol days too, but the software pirates have ruined that for all of us. They are the ones who should get the blame.

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>I consider it a fact that most people who pirate software (including FS software) won't even buy it if they didn't have>the possibility of getting it "for free", i.e., pirated.I doubt that very much. The fact that they are collecting the stuff shows they want it. And if they want it bad enough they will pay for it, like they have to pay for everything else. I think you got it 100% backwards. They steal the stuff because they can...its available. Otherwise I am quite sure a very high percentage of them would buy it if they were prevented from swiping it. Sure some do it for sport. But I think they are the minority.

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>At last a post in this thread that makes some sense. Piracy>is a problem but the draconian anti-piracy measures of some>vendors is a far greater problem.I have yet to see anything "draconian". Why would software vendors protecting themselves be a problem? They only people who really are experiencing any angst over the whole affair are the people getting frustrated trying to rip it off.

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