Is everyone a software pirate?

[Jeff Nielsen 1,386]

LMAO--yeah I surrender.

[Guest R5D4]

Epilogue:Do products really fail due to "piracy"? If so how do so many succeed inspite of it? Why do people buy some and not others given that all can be acquired on p2p?*deleted stupid rant*

[neil0311 366]

Each person has to make the decision to do not only the legal thing, but the right thing. I don't think that using a no-cd crack for a legally purchased copy of software is equivalent to a pirated copy, but I understand you point. The same people who pirate or share files would never dream of driving off from a gas station (petrol station) without paying, or shoplifting at a department store. Yet they don't think twice about stealing other people's intellectual property because it's easier to get away with and not get caught. All the rationalizations in the world can't make it right, legal, moral or ethical. The excuse that you can't stop it because eveyone's doing it, is the same excuse being used here in the US for the gov't abdicating its responsibility to secure our southern border. You never know what you can do if you never try. It starts with individuals teaching their kids and practicing what they preach. It's about integrity. Some of us have it and some don't.

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

John:But we should at least be united in our public distaste for the practice given this is one of the more widely read forums.What are you suggesting, that there should be no discussions about these topics? Are you going to suspect that everyone who does not agree with YOUR view of piracy is pro-pirate or a pirate? I really think the world could do without this "with us or against us" crap. That stinks, and the folks who would rather argue and mince words vs. offer their support stink. I won't lighten up on this one.Just because we don't agree with what you think about piracy does not mean we have to be pro-piracy. Not everyone that disagrees with the war in Irak is pro-terrorism or a terrorist. :)As for the stink thing... You should know better.It just saddens me when people are incapable of holding an argument without getting personal.Edited for spelling.Daniel P.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpgMember of SJU Photography. [A HREF=http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=9004]Click Here[/A] to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!The official psychotic AA painter. :)

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"What are you suggesting, that there should be no discussions about these topics? Are you going to suspect that everyone who does not agree with YOUR view of piracy is pro-pirate or a pirate? I really think the world could do without this "with us or against us" crap."In a nutshell Dan, if someone here finds a way to rationalize or justify piracy, in my eyes he's a punk. I have no use for him. I have no problem with "discussing" piracy--never said that I did, so please don't put words in my mouth. We can discuss the issue--how to reduce it, how to protect those who are victims from it, how to make it easier to purchase software, how to remove draconian copy protection measures that prevent us from backing up our purchases or upgrading our systems. But there's no justification for the practice of taking someone's investment and giving it to others or "giving it to ourselves", period. I do take it personally, because that's how I make my living--Edit: --by helping provide software products my clients are meant to purchase. Even in my business, some of our clients steal and pirate. Losing revenue from one sale--it happens. But piracy can cascade to a point where no one pays for a product any more. But I've seen a few of the ones trumpeting piracy say "prove it". I don't think the ones who went out of business are able to be here to prove it. Or I suspect from the comments many make here, they don't want to be. -John

[Guest R5D4]

>In a nutshell Dan, if someone here finds a way to rationalize>or justify piracy, in my eyes he's a punk. I have no use for>him. Once we rationlise "piracy" we could move the debate on to the things you mentioned. I.e. discuss the added value above the digital download that a person who buys the product gets: regular updates/patches, printed manuals, customer-only support forums, boxed products, instant download etc. How can these become so compelling people won't bother with downloading for free....Focusing on these rather than a hypothetical "depriving me" argument because - sorry - IMHO many would rather deprive you if the alternative is to deprive themselves - or "I have no use for him" as you would say.This is how you change views - take the 99% majority closet pirates on this forum with you - start from a rationlised view of "piracy" and develop it from there to a solution.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Focusing on these rather than a hypothetical "depriving me" argument because - sorry - IMHO many would rather deprive you if the alternative is to deprive themselves - or "I have no use for him" as you would say."That's true--almost any "crime" comes out of motive and opportunity. Almost every day, I creep over the limit on the freeway. I am not supposed to, but I do. Why? Because I see everyone else doing it and unless I am driving in a very foolish manner, the DPS looks the other way. Does that make it right? Nope. Should I tell everyone it's alright? Nope. It's my decision to make, but I shouldn't encourage others to do the same. That sudden swerve or pass they make on a blind spot because "John said it's alright" could get someone killed. I think that's why many hop on the bandwagon of piracy--look how Napster exploded. They see people they respect doing it or looking the other way.Until I started working in the software industry, back in the 80's, one of the worst pirates I knew was a close relative. He stole everything--had copies of Wordperfect, Lotus 1-2-3, etc... And he gave what he had to his friends. It wasn't until I started working and showed him how tight our bottom line was that he slowly started to change. I loved him dearly, but I still thought his habit stank and I let him know it. He still pirated software until almost the moment he left this world..I suppose I am not offended by the guy who sneaks a copy of my products (by the way, if you check into virtually any hotel in the U.S., you've seen someone using one of my products :) ). I am offended if he makes a public issue of it, to the point where it becomes easier for people to go to him for my product vs. paying me.I don't know why my being upset over that, or having strong feelings over the people who do it, get so many here riled up. To be honest I make it clear in no uncertain terms what I think of people who condone piracy. Maybe I should back off and say I can't think ill of people I don't know, but the practice of piracy is bottom feeding. No one can prove otherwise to me. -John

[Guest jgreth123]

I noticed that no one commented on my use of pirated addons. I'm not going to explain it all over again, but basically I use them to determine whether I'll buy something or not. All of the FS Addons that I USE have been paid for or given to me legitimately by the software owners for making movies. All of the addons that I don't use, I DO delete and I'm done with them. I've been burned quite often in the past buying something and turns out it wasn't worth $1.00 nevermind $30+. I'm not going to name any developers/vendors, but they exist. So in that regard, I think it's a pretty fair way to use it. Now, on the same token, most people that DO download them do NOT go and purchase the software. I don't agree with that, but how can you police the matter? I feel piracy as a whole is wrong, but because it does exist, I use PART of it to my benefit as a try-before-buy system.For clarification, Flight1 and a few others offer either a demo or a money-back process so I've never had to use this method with their software.I guess it's along the same road as owning FS9 but using a crack. Technically I own all the software I use, but anyhow.I'm sure some people will find it wrong because I'm even using the system of piracy. But from the standpoint of the 'stealing', I'm not. I delete stuff I don't use. I pay for stuff I do use. Simple.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Thanks Jeff...With a little common sense coding, most developers could release demo products of their software. At least that's true in the sim world, it's not easily done in my profession, although I do have a demo of my most recent resort management project that at least gives our potential clients a sense of its look and feel. Still, I think you have to honestly think about the practice of grabbing pirated software to "demo" it. Where do you get it? From friends, alright, where did they get it? From a warez site? How does that warez site support itself? Does it collect ad money, donations, etc??? I am almost certain the motives of those taking from the site aren't always the same as yours. That site is pushing stolen property (of course some here say it's not property because it's not physical inventory--I've given up on that argument).My point is, just like drug use (and often people hosting these sites also are into other types of crime), the pirated software that you use for the purpose of researching a product is usually victimizing someone, somewhere at the profit of someone else. I think it quite unlikely that everyone pirates for the purpose you do. On the other hand, if you alone reverse engineeered copy protection and shared that information with no one, and are as honest as you say, then I doubt it would make any vendor care. I wouldn't. I care about the people who support the sites offering these cracks, hacks, etc by either using what they offer, associating with buddies who use what they offer, or trumpeting what they offer and rubbing it in developer's faces.-John

[Roger Mazengarb 0]

G'day John,Well I've read all the posts and as far as I can see the problem is that everyone has a different opinion as to just what constitutes being a pirate, a thief, or in receipt of stolen goods. Most posts are purely emotive. I heard on the radio driving home tonight that Australia is about to amend the copyright laws to no longer make it a crime to copy off the TV (free to air - not certain about cable) with the VCR. I think the same will apply to copying radio broadcasts. One would presume that the copy was for personal private use only. We will have to wait and see the fine print in the ammendment. Cheers,Roger

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Pretty wise comment Roger--We all do have different definitions of piracy, love, war, and the list goes on :) I have a very narrow perspective on piracy. I imagine if I were a politician, I'd have a very narrow perspective on war. So I guess in fairness it's a challenge to judge the folks here without knowing them, and I've only spoken two members here in all my time on the forums--and they were both rather honorable gentleman :)-John

[Jeff Nielsen 1,386]

That's not even close to a justification. First of all it's the law that says if it can be transmitted over the radio it can be heard.Second of all they get paid for their broadcast, developers don't get paid for putting something on their site.Thirdly, YOU CANNOT use it to make money from if you tape a TV or radio broadcast.SO IF YOU TAKE my stuff AND USE it for PERSONAL USE WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT IS STEALING plain and simple!! That means you can be charged with theft (locally) and wire fraud (federaly) because you used a wireline or wireless device to committ the crime.

[Jeff Nielsen 1,386]

I'll comment:If I find out you have or had any of our stuff, I'll do everything in my power to prosecute you. How's that?You had to get those from somewhere and by doing so you also contributed to piracy and helped those continue to pirate and distribute illegal copies of software or media.Your actions help to further the actions of those committing worse crimes regardless of your intentions.

[Guest jgreth123]

>I'll comment:>>If I find out you have or had any of our stuff, I'll do>everything in my power to prosecute you. How's that?>>You had to get those from somewhere and by doing so you also>contributed to piracy and helped those continue to pirate and>distribute illegal copies of software or media.>>Your actions help to further the actions of those committing>worse crimes regardless of your intentions. >>Jeff, I can honestly say I've never even heard of your company before. I went to your site and I haven't seen your stuff before. So you can rest easy there. I will admit that it's wrong to even 'borrow' a pirated copy of something. I also think it's wrong to charge $85 for a small addon to a simulator. Sure, they can charge whatever they want, but how are we supposed to know how good it is? Any company worth their salt will offer some sort of compensation for those that aren't satisfied with the product. PMDG doesn't offer a way to demo their work. Did I pirate their software? Nope. I happened to see it at a friend's house and was impressed. I bought it the next day. I think everyone will openly admit here that there are quite a few addons that aren't worth a fraction of what the companies are charging. I also think everyone will admit that it's more of a personal opinion on what is worth it and what isn't. Reviews are biased. They don't have to be biased for monetary reasons; everyone just has their own views on what is good to THEM and what isn't. I've thrown away well in excess of $100 on addons that I don't even keep on my hard drive in their archived/installation format. I'd also like to add that I'm also a software engineer. I know for a fact that some of my work has been pirated. I have just accepted it a long time ago. There is ALWAYS going to be someone smarter than you out there. They'll think of a way to get around your security measures. Anyone that has a decent knowledge of programming and lots of time to devote WILL crack any software. Overall, though, it's a VERY small percentage that is pirated. If the market was so tough, there wouldn't be many developers making addons. Most people do buy the software they use. I buy all the software I use too. There's just a lot of scams out there even in our beloved FS world. But hey, good luck with that prosecuting.

[Jeff Nielsen 1,386]

You have got to be kidding. "how are we supposed to know how good it is" Why don't you try asking around.If the price is to high for "YOU" then don't buy it, but that DOES NOT GIVE YOU the right to "try" it out first.Furthmore, it does not give you right to further aid in the commission of a FELONY. You got that kiddo?Don't even push your luck "good luck with that prosecuting" You think I can't reach out and touch someone through the law? I don't care what country you live in.