41 minutes ago, robert young said:

Your hunch is right - no amount of control sensitivity adjustment can mask the underlying pitch instability of a badly tuned flight model. And yes, heavier aircraft with much greater inertia can also mask the problem so you can get away with a bad flight model more easily on heavy aircraft.

Have you followed what has been taken to Asobo on this topic?  It's a puzzle that it's stayed this way because after all, it's not like creating a more accurate flight model is new territory.  I wonder if it's a major WishList item?

6 hours ago, psolk said:

Unless of course you are one of the people to move from sim racing to real racing....  Yes, there is such a thing as a hard core simmer... 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/f1-esports-racer-makes-history-25923102

https://www.oneesports.gg/culture/f1-esports-racer-now-a-formula-2-driver/

https://www.simrace247.com/2020/08/05/sim-racer-baldwin-wins-in-real-life-pro-gt3-debut/

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53554245

https://traxion.gg/sim-racer-turned-real-racer-with-rudy-van-buren-the-traxion-gg-podcast-season-2-episode-10/

 

I actually know personally a couple of folks who went from Gran Turismo and iRacing to rather successful professional racing drivers.

None of them ever took themselves and their pilot roleplay as overly seriously as some of the so-called "harcore simmers" you see in this hobby. 

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by Abriael

1 hour ago, robert young said:

Sure - I didn't say it was perfect but it doesn't have the extreme pitch bobbing that the default Asobo one has. I got my PPL in 1973 and flew a shedload of light GA aircraft over many years, including Cessna and Pipers, and a few tail draggers. They were all remarkably stable in pitch even if they could be a handful in turbulence in yaw and roll. The extreme elasticity in pitch is very marked in Fs2020. Even the Caravan bobs up and down at the slightest pitch input. They really shouldn't do this. I note that many YT videos demonstrate how delicately a lot of even seasoned pilots baby their way in control of these default aircraft and don't seem to comment on how over the top the bobbing up and down is. I personally cannot stand the response. For example when slow and nearing the flare at ten knots above the stall, most light GA aircraft should have you close to having the stick in your lap. They should be quite sluggish in response at low speeds.

 

That would be really annoying! I wonder what controllers/yokes you have and your sensitivity settings as well? I have the Alpha/Bravo combo and I hardly experience this. Then again, I don't fly the default planes unless they have a modified flight model. Even in XP11 these were not modeled as "study" level(but someone already made that point). In MSFS I set the reactivity settings differently for various aircraft that seemed to have helped a number. It made them feel less responsive on their respective axis' depending on what I thought would be realistic for me. The odd issue is that the sensitivity graph doesn't necessarily represent the correct response. From my understanding, the lower the reactivity setting percentage the less response you get when you move the controller faster. Or something like that. The graph doesn't represent this though oddly enough. Maybe a bug? Unfortunately, I am not sure this sim can model what you describe on the landing flare with full flaps etc. Though you might see an improvement if haven't tried these settings already.

Though I do have to state the obvious that XP has been around for over 26 some years. So when you compare Aerobask's excellent DA62 to the default Asobo DA62...yeah, there is a lot left to be desired....but....add in that excellent freeware mod and you have something that improves it immensely. Even the Caravan improvement mod has worked wonders. There is no doubt what XP has brought to flight simulation on the private/personal level but even their default planes were not study level. Even then study level is just an arbitrary term because it might mean something else to others.

Someone pointed out the "crotchetyness" of the flight sim community and hard-core simmers? Definitely!  I like to take it seriously and could careless if someone is more serious, experienced or less etc than I am. Let people care about what they want to care about. Sometimes it can get real petty. If it's a simple texture "issue" on a pricey plane, improper grammar or simulator vs simulator...it gets annoying.

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by Sonosusto

10 minutes ago, Abriael said:

None of them ever took themselves and their pilot roleplay as overly seriously as some of the so-called "harcore simmers" you see in this hobby. 

I don't see that many people on this site that take themselves that seriously.  High standards.  Yeah maybe.  nothing wrong with that

49 minutes ago, Abriael said:

I actually know personally a couple of folks who went from Gran Turismo and iRacing to rather successful professional racing drivers.

None of them ever took themselves and their pilot roleplay as overly seriously as some of the so-called "harcore simmers" you see in this hobby. 

I've been in some of the championship e-races and they are taken as seriously as the real thing.. So is the hardware.

I think you are harping on the term "hard core"  I don't mind calling someone who is more dedicated to something than myself hard core nor do I have an issue when someone at the track comes over while I am reviewing data traces and tells me they just want to drive and I am too hard core for them.  Then I have a friend who will fly anywhere in the world to jump in a race car at a moments notice flying 12 hours and going straight to a race track and I consider them hard core.  

  

47 minutes ago, Sonosusto said:

Someone pointed out the "crotchetyness" of the flight sim community and hard-core simmers? Definitely!  I like to take it seriously and could careless if someone is more serious, experienced or less etc than I am. Let people care about what they want to care about. Sometimes it can get real petty. If it's a simple texture "issue" on a pricey plane, improper grammar or simulator vs simulator...it gets annoying.

Exactly...  

It's all relative and only becomes an issue when hard core defines your ego and attitude opposed to the manner you approach something... 

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by psolk

13 minutes ago, psolk said:

I've been in some of the championship e-races and they are taken as seriously as the real thing.. So is the hardware.

I think you are harping on the term "hard core"  I don't mind calling someone who is more dedicated to something than myself hard core nor do I have an issue when someone at the track comes over while I am reviewing data traces and tells me they just want to drive and I am too hard core for them.  Then I have a friend who will fly anywhere in the world to jump in a race car at a moments notice flying 12 hours and going straight to a race track and I consider them hard core.  

There's a difference between dedication and elitism, and elitism becomes toxic really quickly. It certainly exists and it's pretty widespread in certain environments of the flight simulation community with many self-elected "hardcore" who identify themselves as superior.

All you have to do is to see the reaction of some to the sole mention of the word "Xbox." We've seen people rejoicing at the exclusion of Xbox users from Vatsim (which wasn't even motivated by what they thought it was) instead of advocating for more solid training for everyone (which would be really needed, regardless of platform). 

There is a big differnece between the racing sim community and the flight sim community. The racing sim hobby has never been unpopular. The flight sim hobby has been unpopular for several years. This has created an insular attitude because people wanted to believe such unpopularity was good, keeping the "casuals" out. Even after 1.5 years back into the limelight, you definitely still see the vestiges of that. 

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by Abriael

11 minutes ago, psolk said:

I've been in some of the championship e-races and they are taken as seriously as the real thing.. So is the hardware.

I think you are harping on the term "hard core"  I don't mind calling someone who is more dedicated to something than myself hard core nor do I have an issue when someone at the track comes over while I am reviewing data traces and tells me they just want to drive and I am too hard core for them.  Then I have a friend who will fly anywhere in the world to jump in a race car at a moments notice flying 12 hours and going straight to a race track and I consider them hard core.  

  

Exactly...  

It's all relative and only becomes an issue when hard core defines your ego and attitude opposed to the manner you approach something... 

Good point. One of my most favorite planes in the sim is the Carenado Seneca. Considered "study level?" No....an arbitrary term, really. But this plane does check most of my boxes for fulfillment in a flight sim. It has decent physics, especially for Carenado, whom I think stepped up their game so to speak. It looks good and engine-out performance and stalls are fairly decent. It has integrated GNS750 (that I use often) and is fun to fly. Especially those days when I have a toddler with me, a 100lb german shepherd and other family around me. Not everyone has time to set up a 320 or CRJ for a 980nm flight plan but having AIG and GA traffic with Pilot2ATC does improve the immersion when I don't have to fiddle with the FMS from scratch. Hardcore? No. Not remotely. Can I be more involved? Yes. This includes the modified default MSFS planes like the DA62, CJ4, C208 and a few others. But since owning the JF Arrow(s), Kodiak, Seneca, CRJ, DC-6 and several others.... I really have no huge need to fly the default planes. I do still update them and help provide feedback though when I can.

Hard to fly something complicated when you work more than full-time in healthcare and have a bunch of family commitments. To those that can enjoy this hobby more often....then great! Its one of my most favorite hobbies and I am little jealous when people have time to fly a 6 hour flight. Certainly jealous haha.

The grumpy people need to go. Even some of the developers that lash out here as well.

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by Sonosusto

2 minutes ago, Abriael said:

There's a difference between dedication and elitism, and elitism becomes toxic really quickly. Saying that it doesn't exist or isn't widespread in certain environments of the flight simulation community and that many self-elected "hardcore" don't identify themselves as superior means wearing a blindfold and earplugs. 

All you have to do is to see the reaction of some to the sole mention of the word "Xbox." We've seen people rejoicing at the exclusion of Xbox users from Vatsim (which wasn't even motivated by what they thought it was) instead of advocating for more solid training for everyone (which would be really needed, regardless of platform). 

Don't disagree at all...  Yes, there are some who feel they are "above" MSFS no pun intended.  Some of them do have valid reasons they can't use MSFS ie home cockpit builders etc but the rest are just white noise.  No one really cares to listen  to it 🙂  

Like I said hard core can define your approach to something or your definition of yourself. 

The first is to be admired, the latter is an ego issue 🙂  

9 minutes ago, Abriael said:

There's a difference between dedication and elitism, and elitism becomes toxic really quickly. Saying that it doesn't exist or isn't widespread in certain environments of the flight simulation community and that many self-elected "hardcore" don't identify themselves as superior means wearing a blindfold and earplugs. 

All you have to do is to see the reaction of some to the sole mention of the word "Xbox." We've seen people rejoicing at the exclusion of Xbox users from Vatsim (which wasn't even motivated by what they thought it was) instead of advocating for more solid training for everyone (which would be really needed, regardless of platform). 

the vatsim xbox argument didn't appear to be elitism.  I read and participated in that thread.  People were concerned since msfs release on vatsim that overall quality had deteriorated and was actually causing interruptions to flights and disruptions.  Then most on the thread agreed that vatsim should increase the training to help fix the problem.  It was implied this would get worse with xbox due to sheer numbers.  However that was not elitism.  The reverse is those who have the "How dare anybody not be in love with the new sim".  Each side presents problems to the community.  I use multiple sims myself.  

3 minutes ago, Sonosusto said:

Good point. One of my most favorite planes in the sim is the Carenado Seneca. Considered "study level?" No....an arbitrary term, really. But this plane does check most of my boxes for fulfillment in a flight sim. It has decent physics, especially for Carenado, whom I think stepped up their game so to speak. It looks good and engine-out performance and stalls are fairly decent. It has integrated GNS750 (that I use often) and is fun to fly. Especially those days when I have a toddler with me, a 100lb german shepherd and other family around me. Not everyone has time to set up a 320 or CRJ for a 980nm flight plan but having AIG and GA traffic with Pilot2ATC does improve the immersion when I don't have to fiddle with the FMS from scratch. Hardcore? No. Not remotely. Can I be more involved? Yes. This includes the modified default MSFS planes like the DA62, CJ4, C208 and a few others. But since owning the JF Arrow(s), Kodiak, Seneca, CRJ, DC-6 and several others.... I really have no huge need to fly the default planes. I do still update them and help provide feedback though when I can.

Hard to fly something complicated when you work more than full-time in healthcare and have a bunch of family commitments. To those that can enjoy this hobby more often....then great! Its one of my most favorite hobbies and I am little jealous when people have time to fly a 6 hour flight. Certainly jealous haha.

The grumpy people need to go. Even some of the developers that lash out here as well.

On an aside as someone who has great admiration and appreciation for the health care workers, thank you.  I made sure there was a huge edible arrangements and flower delivery to say thank you as I was discharged.  Thank you.  

9 minutes ago, micstatic said:

the vatsim xbox argument didn't appear to be elitism.  I read and participated in that thread.  People were concerned since msfs release on vatsim that overall quality had deteriorated and was actually causing interruptions to flights.  Then most on the thread agreed that vatsim should increase the training to help fix the problem.  It was implied this would get worse with xbox due to sheer numbers.  However that was not elitism.  

Identifying the problem with Xbox is absolutely elitism. The problem isn't Xbox. It isn't MSFS. It's lacking training, which is primarily on Vatsim's own side and has been an issue way before MSFS was even announced. Even simply correlating the issue with a platform or a simulator absolutely reeks of elitism and has the sole effect of making people feel unwelcome to the community.  And you can't tell me there weren't people celebrating the exclusion of Xbox from the network without even understanding the reason. 

More people doesn't only mean more inexperienced newbies. It also means more dedicated simmers or perspective ones. 

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by Abriael

5 minutes ago, Abriael said:

Identifying the problem with Xbox is absolutely elitism. The problem isn't Xbox. It isn't MSFS. It's lacking training, which is primarily on Vatsim's own side and has been an issue way before MSFS was even announced. Even simply correlating the issue with a platform or a simulator absolutely reeks of elitism and has the sole effect of making people feel unwelcome to the community.  And you can't tell me there weren't people celebrating the exclusion of Xbox from the network without even understanding the reason. 

More people doesn't only mean more inexperienced newbies. It also means more dedicated simmers or perspective ones. 

This type of behavior is unfortunately everywhere. Especially for those of us that have a ridiculous amount of hobbies we see it everywhere (keep your A.D.D. comments to yourselves lol). Motorcycles, photography, flight sim, radio control cars, woodworking etc....there is a lot of people that would harp on a new person getting into woodworking because they used a pocket hole jig to join wood together...instead of using a dado or finger joints etc. Instead, some of these new people get turned down and leave the hobby or really not ask for help/assistance. So, their enjoyment is lessened by quite a bit. This forum is notorious for some nasty attitudes as well. I am surprised as how this is tolerated. Someone even tried to ask for help with something and the developer was extremely condescending towards them because they already "answered" them. How does that help the community by being rude? Especially when something isn't working properly. Or maybe you happen to write imperfectly just to have someone jump down your throat over it? Very unhealthy behavior. 

Anyway....the default planes on this sim are mediocre at best but can see huge improvements with their relative modifications.

11 minutes ago, Sonosusto said:

Anyway....the default planes on this sim are mediocre at best but can see huge improvements with their relative modifications.

I think it's critical to note the default planes are evidently decent enough to allow a 3rd party to get in and enhance it thru modification..  Put another way 98% of the entire package was already done before the mods got to it, or something along those lines.

4 minutes ago, Noel said:

I think it's critical to note the default planes are evidently decent enough to allow a 3rd party to get in and enhance it thru modification..  Put another way 98% of the entire package was already done before the mods got to it, or something along those lines.

That is true. I do still enjoy flying them. I still take the Baron or Bonanza out but after using the Bonanza mod its kind of hard to go back.

32 minutes ago, Abriael said:

Identifying the problem with Xbox is absolutely elitism. The problem isn't Xbox. It isn't MSFS. It's lacking training, which is primarily on Vatsim's own side and has been an issue way before MSFS was even announced. Even simply correlating the issue with a platform or a simulator absolutely reeks of elitism and has the sole effect of making people feel unwelcome to the community.  And you can't tell me there weren't people celebrating the exclusion of Xbox from the network without even understanding the reason. 

More people doesn't only mean more inexperienced newbies. It also means more dedicated simmers or perspective ones. 

I'm not going to debate the obvious with you.  It is absolutely not elitism.  It was even pointed out how much vatsim has improved their training lately.  They even have pilot levels that can be earned with corresponding training courses.  I'm not going to say every single post in that thread had no elitism.   You are fundamentally correct that xbox will have novice sim pilots and expert sim pilots.  Most don't debate that.  But totally unsure why you knock the lack of training.  It's improved drastically.  The youtube videos and guides out there also make it so anybody can learn it.  There is nothign elite about being on vatsim.  They have had over 700,000 people sign up for accounts with over 100,000 active in the last 6 months.  For the record I think increasing testing requirements would improve the problems that the network has experienced in the last year.  Are you an active member?  If not it's probably tough for you to comment on.