Ok guys, this is just my opinion but hear me out. MS has made it clear that MSFS is supposed to be a 10 year project that will be constantly improved throughout that period. That being the case, I think they should work towards gradually getting all of the default planes to "study level". There's plenty of time for them to do it, they have more than enough resources and unlike previous iterations, they now have a marketplace that is printing them money constantly. If MSFS was made to change the game, let's change the game.

I think this is something that will make the base sim a lot more attractive to the hardcore crowd. The level of depth on the planes should be able to be tweaked in the menu, of course, since the more casual crowd should be catered to as well. I know some may think it a waste of resources since the third party market is a thing and mods are being made all the time but it's nice to just fire up the sim and have things working remarkably well without tweaks or add-ons as well.

Let me reiterate that this is just my opinion and I could be way off with this idea but I'd love to hear what you guys think!

Just now, Krakin said:

If MSFS was made to change the game...

The hardcore crowd already purchased MSFS in full knowledge of the quality of default aircraft.  As you said, the marketplace is printing them money constantly, so where is the incentive to produce study level aircraft?  

11 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

The hardcore crowd already purchased MSFS in full knowledge of the quality of default aircraft. 

I was expecting better quality default aircraft than what we got.

19 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

The hardcore crowd already purchased MSFS in full knowledge of the quality of default aircraft.  As you said, the marketplace is printing them money constantly, so where is the incentive to produce study level aircraft?  

Optics. There's still a bunch hardcore guys who won't touch MSFS because it is perceived as just a game. Imagine what will happen when MS has the sim with the reputation of having the best default planes on the market.

Why dont you consider the NXI and the prop update (on some aircraft for now) not as the first steps?

I would prefer Asobo put their energies and resources into making a great sim platform and let the 3PD's give us the study level aircraft.  Its a big ecosystem and many can participate.

44 minutes ago, Krakin said:

Ok guys, this is just my opinion but hear me out. MS has made it clear that MSFS is supposed to be a 10 year project that will be constantly improved throughout that period. That being the case, I think they should work towards gradually getting all of the default planes to "study level". There's plenty of time for them to do it, they have more than enough resources and unlike previous iterations, they now have a marketplace that is printing them money constantly. If MSFS was made to change the game, let's change the game.

I think this is something that will make the base sim a lot more attractive to the hardcore crowd. The level of depth on the planes should be able to be tweaked in the menu, of course, since the more casual crowd should be catered to as well. I know some may think it a waste of resources since the third party market is a thing and mods are being made all the time but it's nice to just fire up the sim and have things working remarkably well without tweaks or add-ons as well.

Let me reiterate that this is just my opinion and I could be way off with this idea but I'd love to hear what you guys think!

I think the priority is to get all the core features polished.  Like right now, people are still complaining about live weather and clouds.  People are still complaining about he AI traffic.  People are still complaining about ATC.

I would rather Microsoft/Asobo get all the core features polished, and polished well. When the core features are very well polished, I wouldn't mind if they switched priorities to making the default planes, study level.  But until then, the core features are a higher priority and that's where they should focus their resources.  Plus, Working Title is making the G1000 and other Garmin avionics study level so there is already movement there.

Edited March 17, 20224 yr by abrams_tank

17 minutes ago, hansb57 said:

Why dont you consider the NXI and the prop update (on some aircraft for now) not as the first steps?

I have considered themand I think the NXi is an underrated achievement that sets the sim apart but we haven't gotten confirmation of how far they're planning to take things and each aircraft is different. 

8 minutes ago, MarkW said:

I would prefer Asobo put their energies and resources into making a great sim platform and let the 3PD's give us the study level aircraft.  Its a big ecosystem and many can participate.

I never said they should drop everything to make this happen and since it is a big ecosystem where many can participate, keep in mind that the default plane at our disposal are a tiny fraction of planes that have been built. Asobo's efforts wouldn't put a dent in what is possible iin the third party space.

 

9 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

I think the priority is to get all the core features polished.  Like right now, people are still complaining about live weather and clouds.  People are still complaining about he AI traffic.  People are still complaining about ATC.

I would rather Microsoft/Asobo get all the core features polished, and polished well. When the core features are very well polished, I wouldn't mind if they switched priorities to making the default planes, study level.  But until then, the core features are a higher priority and that's where they should focus their resources.  Plus, Working Title is making the G1000 and other Garmin avionics study level so there is already movement there.

I was careful to point out the 10 year timeline of the sim so what you're saying is not at odds with what I'm hoping to see.

45 minutes ago, jcjimmy said:

I was expecting better quality default aircraft than what we got.

Been simming for around 30 years. Never have found any default aircraft that were any good, in any sim I have owned. MSFS probably has  the best default aircraft of any sim I have owned. 

21 minutes ago, Krakin said:

I was careful to point out the 10 year timeline of the sim so what you're saying is not at odds with what I'm hoping to see.

I know they said it would be a 10 year project, but in my opinion, I can't see them keeping the same amount of resources on MSFS throughout the entire 10 years.  So I suppose 1.5 years has passed for MSFS, which leave 8.5 years left.  I believe these first 2 years of MSFS is when the revenue is the highest for MSFS because it was newly released for PC, and then it was released for X-Box one year later.  As time progresses, a lot of the more casual simmers will probably fall off and find other interests.  

Thus, it's the first few years of MSFS that provides the most revenue to Microsoft. And this is when Microsoft/Asobo will keep the most manpower working on MSFS.  After 7 to 8 years of MSFS, the revenue from MSFS will be much lower for Microsoft.  Heck, I think even by year 5 of MSFS, the revenue will have dropped a lot.  Probably only the most devout and "hard core" simmers will be providing revenue for Microsoft in MSFS after year 5 of MSFS - for example, a lot of the people that frequent Avsim would be in this class of "hard core" simmers.

So my guess is, Microsoft/Asobo will gradually wind down the number of people working on MSFS over the years, in tandem with the falling revenue of MSFS.  I think Jorge said there are some 200 people working on MSFS now (I'm not sure how many are full time employees working on MSFS though).  I doubt there will be 200 people working on MSFS by year 7 or 8 of MSFS - maybe 1/5 of that, if we are lucky.  We will probably have less updates, and the updates won't be as frequent.  This is also why when many people complain of the instability of MSFS, I say enjoy the updates now, even if they make MSFS less stable, because I doubt we will be getting as many updates in the last few years of MSFS.

So for the reasons above, I really hope they polish the core features of MSFS before they start to reduce the manpower that is working on MSFS.  I don't want MSFS to be left in a state like FSX, where they suddenly stop the updates to it. I would rather the core features of MSFS be polished, before they start reducing the manpower working on MSFS.

Now there is only one scenario where I think they don't reduce the manpower working on MSFS over the years.  And that's if Microsoft plans to enter the commercial market.  In this case, they keep the same amount of manpower, or perhaps even increase the manpower working on MSFS, to penetrate the commercial market.

Also, even if they reduce the manpower working on MSFS after year 5 of MSFS, they may also shift that manpower into developing MSFS 2, probably to be released around 2030.

Edited March 17, 20224 yr by abrams_tank

I much prefer Asobo to finally stabilize the platform and double-finally make everything usable for aircraft developers (weather API mainly). I'd rather have the professionals do the study level aircraft; there is a reason why airline pilots don't construct the airplane and engineers don't fly it.

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

Ok guys, this is just my opinion but hear me out. MS has made it clear that MSFS is supposed to be a 10 year project that will be constantly improved throughout that period. That being the case, I think they should work towards gradually getting all of the default planes to "study level". There's plenty of time for them to do it, they have more than enough resources and unlike previous iterations, they now have a marketplace that is printing them money constantly. If MSFS was made to change the game, let's change the game.

I think this is something that will make the base sim a lot more attractive to the hardcore crowd. The level of depth on the planes should be able to be tweaked in the menu, of course, since the more casual crowd should be catered to as well. I know some may think it a waste of resources since the third party market is a thing and mods are being made all the time but it's nice to just fire up the sim and have things working remarkably well without tweaks or add-ons as well.

Let me reiterate that this is just my opinion and I could be way off with this idea but I'd love to hear what you guys think!

 

Your idea is way off. They have stated very clearly that they will not release default study level aircraft. They don't want to step on third-party developers' feet more than they already do.

Looking at the demographics of any commercially successful simulator, the crowd you define "hardcore" that actually wants "study level" (which is already a silly definition) aircraft is an overwhelmingly outnumbered minority. The vast majority are users that not only doesn't expect ultra-complex aircraft, but are actively turned off by them. 

So asking default aircraft to come with complexity required to satisfy the so-called "hardcore" means funneling a lot of resources into catering to a vastly outnumbered minority of user that is already catered to by plenty of third-party developers, while said resources are much better spent in improving the simulator for everyone. 

I think the past few years spent in enthusiast forums and on simulators that are pretty literally commercial failures may have gotten some to feel a bit of an echo chamber effect and believe that people who want "study level" aircraft are anything more than a minority. They really aren't in any sim that has an actually healthy and widespread userbase.

It's time to get rid of the idea created over the past few years that flight simulators are a small (and dwindling) club of people who like to flip 243 switches before taking off. The big wide world has come to knock, and the hobby's a much better and more diverse place thanks to that.

And I say this as someone who enjoys his aircraft complex, the more complex the better. But I am aware I'm not the majority, not even close. Which is why I wouldn't even dream to demand that Microsoft caters to me with its default offering. That's what third-parties are for.

Edited March 17, 20224 yr by Abriael

1 hour ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

so where is the incentive to produce study level aircraft?

Precisely. Would they make more money by 'upgrading' all the default aircraft? I'm doubtful of that. Besides, for all the hardcore simmers they might attract with everything being 'study level', they'd probably alienate more people who, like me, want a 'realistic experience' without the hassle of understanding every single button, switch and setting on the default aircraft. If they produced study level versions of everything whilst also including the current versions, fine, but then they'd have twice as many aircraft to maintain/update and potentially at least twice as many issues to keep needing patches. As others have said, they should put the majority of their efforts into stabilising the platform and providing the fixes and features the majority are looking for.

Jorg said, loosely quoted here, "We could have made what is called study-level aircraft. We considered it, but ultimately concluded we didn't want to get in the way of third party developers who make a living off of it." during one of the Q&A's last year.

So that's ASOBO's stance on the matter as of 2021. That said, I disagree that they "could have" made a study-level aircraft. MSFS hit ASOBO like a bus. They were not prepared for the task, obviously, but they've now got a lot of experience and we can see the momentum picking up. 2 or so years from now, they'll probably be in a good spot to make a study level aircraft if they wanted - but I imagine they'll have their hands full with a lot of other tasks.

Edited March 17, 20224 yr by WestAir
Poor spelling, as usual.

Depends how we define study level...  If we start from zero the default Cessna is study level and teaches critical flight concepts.  If you want study level systems depth from every aircraft included with the sim you sure wouldn't be paying what we are paying now.   Just give us the platform for the developers to do what they do.  

Edited March 17, 20224 yr by psolk