I agree with most in this thread.  The mass of the market are not looking for study level.  Rather the Control E and takeoff quickly after crowd.  The most interesting question to me will be in 5 years from now to look and see if the flight sim market is much bigger than it was a couple years ago.  It's easy to feel some of the momentum has already gone.  some.  Not sure about you guys.  But I'm not hearing chatter anymore about flight simulators from the non flight sim crowd anymore.  there was a time when it seemed like I was hearing that kind of chatter a decent amount and seeing more bloggers/streamers etc talk about MSFS.  Like others have said.  I'd be totally fine if aircraft development is halted by asobo and left to the 3rd party devs.  

30 minutes ago, micstatic said:

The mass of the market are not looking for study level

True for sure--BUT...the Control E crowd STARTS their adventure on Xbox.  A percentage of them albeit very likely small, will get hooked and decide to move on into the PC realm where there is more flexibility and performance capabilities.  MSFS Platinum HC would not be available for Xbox users.  And here's the other important piece:  many in the Control E group will burn out fairly quickly if they don't become truly smitten, and those same folks are likely not purchasing the mega detailed 3rd party planes and airports in large part.  It's the dedicated, smitten, addicted that end up collecting addons I believe--and this is what helps sustain MSFS long term, well after any interest remains from the console crowd.   IOW, this is not about mass market!

 

Edited March 17, 20224 yr by Noel

35 minutes ago, micstatic said:

there was a time when it seemed like I was hearing that kind of chatter a decent amount and seeing more bloggers/streamers etc talk about MSFS

... but then the freebies from Microsoft stopped coming.

I feel like it's a logical fallacy to conclude there are only two options. I believe, perhaps naively, that ASOBO can cater to both hardcore and casual fans concurrently. I expect we'll see a complex weather overhaul with lenticular clouds and microbursts just as much as I expect we'll see another pre-WWII plane.

The skies are bright and full of simmers.

2 hours ago, Abriael said:

Microsoft should sell 12 study-level aircraft for $49. 😂😂😂

 

Think about what you're saying with this sarcasm.  Microsoft sells MSFS for anywhere from $1 for access to $119 for premium edition and a happy $59 for standard edition.  Now think about the massive coding it has taken to get standard edition to where it is today.  Think about what all of what you get for $59--the scenery, the atmosphere and lighting, the performance.  So to take planes that are largely complete already as default, target deficencies and enhance them to so-called 'study level' quality, would absolutely pale in comparison to the work it took to what they shoot out the door for $59 or even $119, complete with serial World Updates and continuous quality improvement.  So yes, $49 for 12 study-level aircraft is complelely within reason by that measure.

1 hour ago, micstatic said:

I agree with most in this thread.  The mass of the market are not looking for study level.  Rather the Control E and takeoff quickly after crowd.  The most interesting question to me will be in 5 years from now to look and see if the flight sim market is much bigger than it was a couple years ago.  It's easy to feel some of the momentum has already gone.  some.  Not sure about you guys.  But I'm not hearing chatter anymore about flight simulators from the non flight sim crowd anymore.  there was a time when it seemed like I was hearing that kind of chatter a decent amount and seeing more bloggers/streamers etc talk about MSFS.  Like others have said.  I'd be totally fine if aircraft development is halted by asobo and left to the 3rd party devs.  

As someone who works as a gaming journalist in a generalist gaming website, I can definitely attest the opposite. My daily news articles about Microsoft Flight Simulator and addon reviews have been consistently increasing in traffic, certainly not decreasing, so much that my employers have recently asked me explicitly not to miss a day if possible. Before the release of MSFS, they considered writing about any flight simulator a waste of my time, because hardly anyone among the general gaming audience cared one bit to read about P3D or Xplane. 

If you're not hearing chatter about flight simulators among the non flight sim crowd anymore, you likely don't talk to the non flight sim crowd. 

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by Abriael

Default so called "study level" Please no maybe the Cessna 152 as a trainer, leave the rest for 3PD and let them eat and let the likes of A2A and Milviz for GA and PMDG, Leonardo, Fenix etc. take care of the "high fidelity"  airliner aircraft. Don't forget Wing 42 for vintage birds that B247 looks absolutely great and very well simulated.

Edited March 18, 20224 yr by jbdbow1970

I would like developers to have access to some of the hidden files of the original (premium) aircraft , to improve the systems etc. much like the simcoders did with XP11. The standard aircraft all look fantastic, it's only the functionality that is lacking. The Baron being a prime example. 

10 hours ago, Krakin said:

There's still a bunch hardcore guys who won't touch MSFS because it is perceived as just a game.

Those aren't hardcore guys. Those are guys who can't separate what something is called from what something is and who are more interested in being perceived as being somehow elite by the unwashed masses grubbing around down here in the muck playing our "game." The kinds of guys who wouldn't buy a Chrysler Crossfire because "American cars suck" but would happily run out and buy a Mercedes SLK even though under some tweaked bodywork, it was the same freaking car.

I said a few times, back before MSFS was released, when I'd encounter those guys snooting around about it being "only" a game because it was called a game, that you can call it a word processor for all I care. If it enables good desktop simulation of aviation, I'll buy it no matter what label you put on it. 

Asobo chasing those guys would be silly and fruitless. They could get PMDG and Leonardo to include their planes as default, and those guys would still call it a game and turn their noses up at it. Heck, Asobo could ship a full-motion Level-D simulator with every purchase, and they'd still avoid it because, well, it says it's a game and therefore it's for filthy casuals.

I'd love to see some more effort put into the default planes - the Longitude is a mess, and don't even get me started on the default tubeliners. Many of them are overly low-effort even for non study-level releases.  But a study-level default plane? Nah. I don't want that, and I owned everything PMDG made in P3d, as well as Leonardo's Maddog.

I'm happiest flying study-level planes. But if they made the default planes study-level the sim would cost $500 minimum, no one would buy it, and then all the great controllers that are finally out in the market thanks to the new sim wouldn't have been developed. 

Just make it a platform that the study-level devs can use to create their products at a high level and then get out of their way and let them do it. That's all we really need.

 

 

2 minutes ago, eslader said:

Asobo chasing those guys would be silly and fruitless.

Indeed, chasing a small and dwindling number of fringe elitists that don't realize that it isn't 2012 anymore is an absolute waste of resources and focus. 

"Study Level" is a silly description and should never have seen the light of day. The description would make more sense if just one important thing was achieved, and that is that aircraft fly decently and believably. To me this is more important than any other factor. Unfortunately although the default aircraft look very nice and are in some cases more attractive than 3rd party or addon offerings, none of them fly properly. In particular, pitch control and instability is the no.1 glaring error, followed by the ridiculously excessive reaction to the mildest cross wind on runways. The bouncy pitch control also afflicted default FSX aircraft. It amazes me how even professional pilots seem to be very forgiving and adapt their controller style to compensate for the bouncy, yo-yo like movement in pitch of even some quite heavy aircraft that should not respond like toys (Kingair, Caravan, Baron, etc). These aircraft should be much more stable in pitch but are not. I'm afraid it is due to Asobo's misplaced interpretation of countering what they describe as the "on rails" feel of previous sims (which by the way was a complete misunderstanding).

But to make matters worse, MS and Asobo have locked down the premium aircraft so no-one can adjust them even for personal use without a great deal of hit and miss work that takes 100s of hours. Even worse still is the fact that MS now encrypts the config files of every single addon aircraft that is sold via marketplace, whether or not the developer requested it, and many 3rd party devs were even unaware that MS was encrypting their products. My advice is to check with the developer before buying from their OWN website, that they have not encrypted anything, and if you want access to tweak the slightest or most trivial thing in addon aircraft, then refuse to buy anything from marketplace unless or until MS and Asobo lift this silly encryption.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Scimiter said:

Exactly, how many simmer are hard core?  The minority I would say.

A person calling himself a "hard core simmer" needs to reexamine his priorities.

10 hours ago, Abriael said:

As someone who works as a gaming journalist in a generalist gaming website, I can definitely attest the opposite. My daily news articles about Microsoft Flight Simulator and addon reviews have been consistently increasing in traffic, certainly not decreasing, so much that my employers have recently asked me explicitly not to miss a day if possible. Before the release of MSFS, they considered writing about any flight simulator a waste of my time, because hardly anyone among the general gaming audience cared one bit to read about P3D or Xplane. 

If you're not hearing chatter about flight simulators among the non flight sim crowd anymore, you likely don't talk to the non flight sim crowd. 

the nature of my job keeps me in touch with a very large sample size.  Also search microsoft flight simulator and click news.  It's not like it used to be.  Most of the writeups coming from just 1 source.  Also look at the big tech bloggers.  You and I both know who they are.  You will notice most of them are not using MSFS anymore in their various benchmarks when comparing new releases.  But I'm glad you are pushing flight sim content still which benefits all of us.  

1 minute ago, Ricardo41 said:

A person calling himself a "hard core simmer" needs to reexamine his priorities.

Unless of course you are one of the people to move from sim racing to real racing....  Yes, there is such a thing as a hard core simmer... 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/f1-esports-racer-makes-history-25923102

https://www.oneesports.gg/culture/f1-esports-racer-now-a-formula-2-driver/

https://www.simrace247.com/2020/08/05/sim-racer-baldwin-wins-in-real-life-pro-gt3-debut/

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53554245

https://traxion.gg/sim-racer-turned-real-racer-with-rudy-van-buren-the-traxion-gg-podcast-season-2-episode-10/

 

4 minutes ago, psolk said:

Unless of course you are one of the people to move from sim racing to real racing....  Yes, there is such a thing as a hard core simmer... 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/f1-esports-racer-makes-history-25923102

https://www.oneesports.gg/culture/f1-esports-racer-now-a-formula-2-driver/

https://www.simrace247.com/2020/08/05/sim-racer-baldwin-wins-in-real-life-pro-gt3-debut/

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53554245

https://traxion.gg/sim-racer-turned-real-racer-with-rudy-van-buren-the-traxion-gg-podcast-season-2-episode-10/

 

That's pretty cool to see.  A lot of pro pilots out there who started right here in flight sims.  This is a grumpy group here it seems.  But to the question at hand.  I think MSFS nailed it in terms of providing stock airplanes that are aligned with the desires of the typical user.