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Ray Proudfoot

America 4th July

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The North American P-51D Mustang has emerged as an icon, and is by far the most widely recognized piston fighter ever produced.Now to an American maybe it's the most recognized airplane ever.However, if I asked my mum to look at a Spitfire and next to it showed a Mustang guess what?She would not have a clue about the Mustang but just may guess the spitfire.Now to a German: Trust me, they all know what a Spitfire looks like.Now if we showed these profiles all over the world to different people and different races and different ages I'd put any money you like on a beat that more people would recognize the Spitfire.So ........ It's certainly not by far the most widely recognized piston figher ever produced?Are we talking Spitfire or Mustang.Anyways, we glad the Americans got their country back. And we are darn glad they helped win the war.Now my wife is from Russia and if you ask her who won the war she would say Russia. All Russians would say Russia.Odd as it may seem you ask the French, who were at times on the side of the Germans would say they won the war.Truth is guys and girls, we all won the war and the Spitfire was at that time the most recognized aircraft in the world and probably still is?As for the Mustang, well it came a very close second.Haha.Please don't take any offence. Always, we here in England would be happy to be the 51st State of our big brother and then truely the America would no longer be independant but again part of a union.A Pradox, and a most interesting thought.But the Spitfire rules.......oh, ho, ho.LOL

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Interesting stuff Peter :)Now where is GEPRO? LOL!waiting anxiously,Tim :D

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Peter,When I was a kid, growing up in NEW England (;-)), the B-17 was popular because we could watch reruns of "Twelve O'Clock High" in the afternoons after school. The Mustang was always "little brother" to the B-17.But the deep, dark secret I harbored...and never told my Fortress-loving buddies...was that since the Summer of '68, when my parents took me to see "Battle of Britain", the Spit was my absolute favorite airplane. I'm more open about it now...I'll push right past a Mustang if there's a Spitfire to be seen.If I could choose any place and time, and any airplane, I'd pick Hampshire in the Spring and Summer of 1940, and Spit Mk I.

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Hey Pete, the Spit was pretty popular over here in the US also in certain circles. When I grew up I surely knew about it even in grade school from our history teachers. Maybe I was just lucky :-)I think an original Spit would draw almost as much as a mustang even over here, money wise.A little hint about alot of Americans. We generally have an affinity for foreign things...lol.

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I know you do Jeff, your version of London City was one of the best ever produced. And the first to show the Tate & Lyle sugar refinery nearby.edit: why I hear people ask am I conerned with a Sugar refinery? Easy, it's close to my heart as I used to deliver Steel there for a contract company to use. And oh that smell, that wonderful smell of refining cane sugar, Beet sugar smells awful by comparison.

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Both are iconic superb aircraft, united by the mighty RR powerplant that took the Mustang from relative obscurity to brilliance.Lets not forget the Hurricane, which was cheap to build and almost as good and the B-17 which was a phenomenal aircraft.Interesting cryptic thread title. July 4th is the day that the Spit and Mustang would be on opposing sides so to speak - I believe we Brits lost that particular battle! Cheers James

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Thanks John,I should say though that Oli did LCY and Oli and Will did EGKK, then it was Oli, Will, and Colin for EGKA, then Oli, Will, and Colin for the first part of KMCI. They are all residents of the London area if I remember right, though Colin I think is from another part of the UK (Mansfield I think). I think I got all that right.:-) Now the rest of KMCI is being finished up here in the US.We actually have people from just about every part of the world right now all working on various projects. We decided to take the hit/flaming for being slow and revamp our announcements policy in order to ensure we didn't get bit by murphy's law again in order to try and maintain a better consitiency and ensure the same good quality in our future releases.We also owe quite a bit to the LCY airport staff, BAA, and EGKA airports dept. for their outstanding assistance in all of our UK series.Even the folks at VFR/Horizon were great in making sure we had dev copies for us to try and ensure some compatibility with their stuff. Unfortunatley though due to various release dates it became nearly impossible to keep up with them in the later stages of our stuff.We do plan on making free FSX upgrades for our UK series when the time comes as well as for our next 2 or 3 FS9 scenery releases we intend (fingers crossed) to have out in the next 2-3 accordingly months.More info then you needed I'm sure, but there you go. We've enjoyed watching these sceneries have very wonderful runs for the last 3 years.

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Nah, we let you win....LOLPS: glad you did.... rather glad we let you win.... ROFL

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And this is posted here because...? Have a little too much toddy Peter :-) ?

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Because it's the general disscussion area.And it's in good humor and linking to the message of the timely market porduct on the front page of Avsim talking up the Mustang as being the most recognized piston aricraft of all time.And your point was to suugest I'm drunk!As a matter of fact I hate getting drunk and only ever have 1 beer max and I never get drunk. So no, not had too much to drink.LOL

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So that was you behaving sober one night after the other at the Blackpool FS show last year :-beerchugActually, it didn't occur to me you may have typed the original post whilst being slightly ######, I was worried you may have had a stroke ;-)Of course, you're quite right about the Spitfire being he most recognized, though I always feel sorry for the poor old Hawker Hurricane as it was of course this that won the Battle of Britain and not the fabled Spitfire.As for the 51st State thing, well all I can say is "bollocks to that". I live in England - not the UK, not Europe and certainly part of the USA!! Mind you, the USA could always come back to being part of the British Empire; it's be like having a bigger version of the Isle of Wight ;-)Dreamfleet Project ManagerGreatest Airliners - DC-8Greatest Airliners - 727 Whisperjethttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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OK Peter. I missed part about the P51D in the "Shockwave advertisement". But, I never suggested you were drunk. Too much toddy is, indeed, not the same as being drunk. I tell my wife this all the time :-) .Doug

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This sounds like Mustang envy to me. Ha ha, ho, ho.Cheers,Todd

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>The North American P-51D Mustang has emerged as an icon, and>is by far the most widely recognized piston fighter ever>produced.>>Now to an American maybe it's the most recognized airplane>ever.I have to disagree with you unless you are being strict on "type". Interceptor, escort, close air support...But if you are talking light war aircraft with dog fight capabilities, than I would have to say the Stuka is by far the most recognizable and feared aircraft everywhere on this planet of all time.If we are talking famous vintage aircraft associated with the second world war, than the DC3 win hands down, followed closely by the B17.The Mustang is no where near as famous as the others outside the US, and the Spit was not the only famous AC from England; the Hawker and Masquito were as arguably recognazable (the Mustangs real fame came late in the war due to the drop tanks and extended range for escort duty).The problem here too is you're a bit Euro/Amerocentric. This is only talking about the European Theatre. Lets bring the Pacific War into the picture with the Zero and the Thunderbolt, later the Corsair and Lightning....If were are not limiting it to the second world war, then the most famous AC IMHO is likely the Sopwith Camel and Fokker Tri-plane of the Red Baron. Who has not heard of the Red Baron? There were trading cards made of the Red Baron in the west DURING the war because he was so popular. And it is true, a Mustang does look like a low wing Cessna when in flight and seen from the ground. Only the sound gives it away. :)CheersShad

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LOL!!! So when she walks through the door it goes a bit like...........Ello dwarlin. Ov cawse I'm not drunk, jus ad a bit too mush toddy ats awl...........hic!

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> OK Peter. I missed part about the P51D in the "Shockwave>advertisement". But, I never suggested you were drunk. Too>much toddy is, indeed, not the same as being drunk. I tell my>wife this all the time :-) .>>DougOoops, me too. I thought this was just a convo. I see they listed some of the others I mentioned as well...

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You're close :-) .

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Hey --The Mustang is still being made and when was the last Sptifire? 73 or 74??. Don't know about the P51D, but the GT500 is pretty sweet and probably puts out more KW.scott s..

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So...........How come the P-51 just sounds better than the Spit, considering they both have used RR engines?Must be the Mustangs belly radiator outlet or something! :7 No better sound anywhere, that the North American P-51 Mustang!!!Harley's come in second... :-hah L.Adamson

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What's the real point of your post, Peter? No offense intended, my good man.Or, let me ask this:Having spent far more money travelling in Britain than I have in the USA (thus, I truly have no bias), let me ask this:1. How many American-built aircraft did the British operate under their flag during WWII?2. How many British-built aircraft did the Americans operate under their flag during WWII?Which aircraft performed better?1. The Spitfire2. The P-51 MustangWhich country was the first to operate the P-51 Mustang?1. The United States2. Great BritainSeriously, when you consider that the P-51 benefited from the Merlin engine, and that Britain ordered at least 1,000 of them ( how many Spits did ther USA order?) and put them into service FIRST, it's not a matter of who recognizes what. It's a matter of facts.To quote you:"Now if we showed these profiles all over the world to different people and different races and different ages I'd put any money you like on a beat that more people would recognize the Spitfire."I do not know if I would take a bet on that if I were you, as you are probably not aware of just how popular the P-51 was, and not just in the USA, and not just during WWII. The P-51 was used in FAR more countries than the Spitfire ever was!Did you know that the P-51 was used by South Korea, Cuba, China? Did you know that at least 27 countries used the P-51 in one fashion or another?Did you know that the last country to use the P-51 was the Dominican Republic, who ceased use as late as 1990?Can you say the same about the Spitfire or, for that matter, the BF-109?Needless to say, I disagree with you, and I think the P-51 would win the overall recognition contest in the piston fighter category hands down!To quote you:"Now to an American maybe it's the most recognized airplane ever"What? :-lolI would NEVER say that the P-51 is the most-recognized aircraft in the USA. That would probably go to the Piper Cub, the Cessna 172, the Beech V-35, the Boeing 747, etc. If we are just talking piston military aircraft then, yes, perhaps the P-51, if we are talking fighters, otherwise the C-47 or B-17 would probably take honors.Otherwise, You might want to check up on your history of the P-51 and aircraft in general.I love Britain, and mean no offense, but you started this!Again, no offense intended, my good man, but when you put your post under the name "America 4th July", you had best be sure you have your facts straight, and I dare say that you do not. Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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The Spit can be a very emotive aircraft for anyone British with more than a passing interest in aviation.I believe it was the only Allied fighter to be in production for the whole of the Second World War. I believe it saw service in more fronts and theatres than any other fighter.The Spit, Hurri and the men who flew and maintained them can claim to have played a pivotal role in saving a nation in its darkest hour, when Britain and the Commonwealth stood *alone* against ###### Germany and Fascist Italy.Dare I say it, fine aircraft the P-51 was, we probably could have won the war without it. By the time the Mustang started making its presence felt in Europe contemporary British fighters and US types were already a match for Luftwaffe types. The Luftwaffe was being bled to death on the Eastern Front and it can be argued Germany was already beaten, it was just a matter of time. Then of course there is always the argument that the Allied Bomber Offensive was not as effective as many would like to think.However, if the Spit and Hurri were not around in sufficient quantities in 1940 the war, and world history could quite possibly have taken a very different course.Still, there is no doubt the Mustang was a fine fighter flown by extremely competent and brave men, just as the Spitfire was.Unfortunately most people don't give a monkey's about history these days. We live in a dumbed down culture and if you put an average person in front of a Spit or Mustang they will just say "Oh, an aeroplane. So what?" They're more likely to be far more interested in who got evicted from Big Bother last night.Now for a real aviation icon that is recognised by the general population..... Concorde.

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>The Spit, Hurri and the men who flew and maintained them can>claim to have played a pivotal role in saving a nation in its>darkest hour, when Britain and the Commonwealth stood *alone*>against ###### Germany and Fascist Italy.>And if it were not for the Canadian and American Pilots who flew in them, they would not have played such a pivotal role in saving a nation. Britain and the Commonwealth did not "stand alone" against Germany and Italy. Where would have Britain have been, without the Merchant Marine, and all the lend-lease fuel, food, and munitions. My Uncles fought and died on or above British soil, flying British aircraft, while others died in the Atlantic on Merchant Ships.... while American Taxpayers paid for Billions of Dollars in Lend-Lease, which has never been repaid. It does not really matter which aircraft is most recognized, it only matters that:As long as the U.S. exists, Britain will -never- "be alone."

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>The Spit can be a very emotive aircraft for anyone British>with more than a passing interest in aviation.>>I believe it was the only Allied fighter to be in production>for the whole of the Second World War. I believe it saw>service in more fronts and theatres than any other fighter.I believe that title would have to go to the P-40, it seved in Europe the Pacific, China (AVG Flyig Tigers), and the Russian Front via the lend/lease act. >>The Spit, Hurri and the men who flew and maintained them can>claim to have played a pivotal role in saving a nation in its>darkest hour, when Britain and the Commonwealth stood *alone*>against ###### Germany and Fascist Italy.efTrue the Spitfire was an excellant fighter for it's time but the fact is The Luftwaffe lost 1733 aircraft to Britains RAF 915. That's less than a 2 to 1 Kill to loss ratio, and that included the Hurricane which many believe actually played a greater role in the BOB than the Spit. Meanwhile the Mustang racked up 4900+ aerial kills and 4100+ ground kills for a Kill ratio of 11 to 1. (And that still wasn't the best of the War, that title went to the F6F Hellcat with a 19 to 1 ratio) Could you imagine what you could have done to the Germans if you had Mustangs then? Plus with it's range, you could have taken the fight right to Germany much sooner.>>Dare I say it, fine aircraft the P-51 was, we probably could>have won the war without it. By the time the Mustang started>making its presence felt in Europe contemporary British>fighters and US types were already a match for Luftwaffe>types. The Luftwaffe was being bled to death on the Eastern>Front and it can be argued Germany was already beaten, it was>just a matter of time. Then of course there is always the>argument that the Allied Bomber Offensive was not as effective>as many would like to think.>Yes it's possible, but without it the Bombing campaign would have completely failed, the loss rate of Allied Bombers before it's introduction was already extremely high. This would have meant all of the war factories deep in Germany would still be making weapons, including the V1's and V2's. Also it may have allowed the Germans to produce in much larger quantities it's more advanced weapons like the ME-262 and the King Tiger Tanks. If this had happened it could have greatly affected the outcome. It would also undoubtedly prolonged the war. Yes Germany may have ultimately lost, but Allied losses would be much greater and most likely Russia would have been able to get a much deeper foot hold in Germany then the did. Personally, I always considered the P-51D Mustang as a joint venture between the US and GB. It was Britain that originally ordered it. The USAAF at that time wasn't that interested in it. If it wasn't for the Rolls Royce Merlin it is doubtful the Mustang would have racked up the record it did, as the Allison Engine variants just wasn't up to the task. It was a good low level fighter, but wasn't as effective at high level. The Merlin solved this deficiency.

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