So Many DC-3 Mods

[pmplayer 9,639]

17 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Keeping it straight on the runway on landing is definitely difficult even with the mod.

I have made a few ground loops myself!

It is being looked at.  Weight and balance can have a lot to do with it and it does need sorting out.

Not sure if the CG needs moving forwards or backwards. My physics fails me at this point.

It is s practise thing, training your landing is the keyword, i did and now it works pretty OK 

OK, not realy pencil straight but good to comparison it with my first flights and landings.

cheers 😉

[HFBHercules1280 13]

All this talk of mods brings me back. I ran Trevor Morsons DC-3 modded .air file in FS9 for years. I remember it disabled the default autopilot and gave us some really cool things for that airplane. Many happy hours flying hand flying the girl all over Ohio. I look forward to what AH does with this one.

[s0cks 135]

Keep the tail up for as long as possible so you keep rudder authority on landing. At least that's what I read and it's what I do. Tailwheel locked. Remember rudder inputs are SLOW to respond. Give a tiny bit of rudder and WAIT to see how it responds. Very easy to be impatient and give too much rudder, and then you're in a never-ending, over-correcting mess and on the grass. Best to practice without wind (or in a perfect headwind).

Edited November 23, 2022 by s0cks

[Alvega 2,126]

4 minutes ago, s0cks said:

Remember rudder inputs are SLOW to respond. 

That's why I changed the rudder_effectiveness in the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section from 1 to 10 and it helped a lot. No more grass roll outs.

[AviatorMan 253]

A bit perplexed. Have applied both of the Flightsim.to mods and the plane seems to fly "better" alright. But are you saying that the AH plane as delivered by Asobo is in fact OK, and we just need to make sure we apply the correct take-off trim? Should I remove the mods? I have to say that if the basic model requires so many mods from the community, then AH was not up to the task to develop for Asobo, and their DC3 should never have been included in the anniversary update. Quality Control would be suspect here. The problem with the updates from the community is yes they make the plane "flyable" but are these mods based upon real knowledge of the way an actual DC3 flies? So I guess I will remove the community mods and go back to the basic enhanced Asobo model and try to make it fly properly.

[asanosho 55]

Watch the video G550flyer posted on Monday.

The real aircraft is inherently unstable at take-off below 120 mph. In the sim it flies as it should. Flight characteristics (at least as far as the take-off is concerned) do not need any modification. You have to apply the correct take-off technique though. The video explains that.

[bobcat999 8,509]

31 minutes ago, AviatorMan said:

A bit perplexed. Have applied both of the Flightsim.to mods and the plane seems to fly "better" alright. But are you saying that the AH plane as delivered by Asobo is in fact OK, and we just need to make sure we apply the correct take-off trim? Should I remove the mods? I have to say that if the basic model requires so many mods from the community, then AH was not up to the task to develop for Asobo, and their DC3 should never have been included in the anniversary update. Quality Control would be suspect here. The problem with the updates from the community is yes they make the plane "flyable" but are these mods based upon real knowledge of the way an actual DC3 flies? So I guess I will remove the community mods and go back to the basic enhanced Asobo model and try to make it fly properly.

You might be overthinking this a bit.  The criticism is a bit severe for something that was delivered for free, to a tight schedule, and is actually in pretty good shape apart from the few usual bugs that lots of third party payware even have.  Look at the amount of updates the C414 and C310 have had, but they are highly regarded.

Airplane Heaven are quite capable of releasing fairly decent DC-3, and they were under the usual time pressure to release it for the 40th anniversary, and that is what they have done.
Since then, lots of people are enjoying it (including me), especially with the free expansion pack, and flight model mods.
And as for AH, they haven't even had chance to deliver a first update yet, but it will come, as they are contracted by Asobo to deliver any fixes required.

Also, the original AH flight model guy admitted there is a problem with the original release (it is not OK!), as a lot of data got missed out of a config file (accidentally of course), causing the uncontrollable pitch up and wing-over sometimes on take-off.  The modders recognised this and addressed it quickly, as they can on flightsim.to.  So if you want to go back to the original, good luck with that!  

So, I am not sure the intensity of your complaining is fair.
If it really perplexes you, I simply would not fly it until AH have the chance to release the fist patch, which judging by the A310 updates, won't be too long.
Or else, download the superb free expansion pack, and Duckwortks flight model, and maybe just enjoy the thing like a lot of people are. 

[bobcat999 8,509]

24 minutes ago, asanosho said:

Watch the video G550flyer posted on Monday.

The real aircraft is inherently unstable at take-off below 120 mph. In the sim it flies as it should. Flight characteristics (at least as far as the take-off is concerned) do not need any modification. You have to apply the correct take-off technique though. The video explains that.

This is simply wrong!  The original flight model guy has since admitted he accidentally left flight model data out in the original release, and this has not been addressed in a patch yet.  The video was made before the problem became apparent.

He even posted the missing data in his comments so people can manually enter it in the config file if the want, before the first patch comes out.

Link:  https://www.youtube.com/user/WellsSullivan/community

I will post his comments so you don't have to go fishing for it...

For those looking for a fix for DC-3 takeoff characteristics, and you have the ability to edit the flight model config file, try this ground effect table,

lift_coef_ground_effect_mach_table = 0.055642:1.141188, 0.102462:1.094058, 0.196717:1.057306, 0.298358:1.041890, 0.400821:1.030873, 0.501642:1.024918, 0.601642:1.019753, 0.701642:1.015583, 0.8:1.010383, 0.9:1.005553, 1:1

The problem was that there were many points missing in the curve and if the sim interpolates between extremes, then lift will be too high in the middle of the range.  I just did a quick test flight and it made a big difference.  I was even able to take some of the nose down trim out.  Or, you can remove passengers from the last couple of rows of seats to move the CG forward.  I don't think most flights operated at 100% capacity anyway.

[AviatorMan 253]

33 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

You might be overthinking this a bit.  The criticism is a bit severe for something that was delivered for free, to a tight schedule, and is actually in pretty good shape apart from the few usual bugs that lots of third party payware even have.  Look at the amount of updates the C414 and C310 have had, but they are highly regarded.

Airplane Heaven are quite capable of releasing fairly decent DC-3, and they were under the usual time pressure to release it for the 40th anniversary, and that is what they have done.
Since then, lots of people are enjoying it (including me), especially with the free expansion pack, and flight model mods.
And as for AH, they haven't even had chance to deliver a first update yet, but it will come, as they are contracted by Asobo to deliver any fixes required.

Also, the original AH flight model guy admitted there is a problem with the original release (it is not OK!), as a lot of data got missed out of a config file (accidentally of course), causing the uncontrollable pitch up and wing-over sometimes on take-off.  The modders recognised this and addressed it quickly, as they can on flightsim.to.  So if you want to go back to the original, good luck with that!  

So, I am not sure the intensity of your complaining is fair.
If it really perplexes you, I simply would not fly it until AH have the chance to release the fist patch, which judging by the A310 updates, won't be too long.
Or else, download the superb free expansion pack, and Duckwortks flight model, and maybe just enjoy the thing like a lot of people are. 

Thanks for your comments, I'm sure you mean them to be helpful. I don't think my criticisms are particularly severe. It's just that after the general publicity preceding the update, expectations were set that the aircraft included would be "fit for purpose". Don't really care if they were free or not. Would be happy to pay for products that actually work. The DC3 looks great, but doesn't fly properly. I realize that this is  just a hobby, but I think there are many of us who do not wish to spend too much wasted time if we know the product is in fact not really ready for release.

[bobcat999 8,509]

1 hour ago, AviatorMan said:

Thanks for your comments, I'm sure you mean them to be helpful. I don't think my criticisms are particularly severe. It's just that after the general publicity preceding the update, expectations were set that the aircraft included would be "fit for purpose". Don't really care if they were free or not. Would be happy to pay for products that actually work. The DC3 looks great, but doesn't fly properly. I realize that this is  just a hobby, but I think there are many of us who do not wish to spend too much wasted time if we know the product is in fact not really ready for release.

Sure.  Not a criticism of you - just a different viewpoint.  The most eagerly awaited aircraft, the A310, DC-3, and Beaver, all needed some work initially and still do. 
For 'deeper' aircraft, I have never seen a fully completed aircraft on release or without any bugs, and so maybe my expectations are lower.

The point of my post is that the DC-3 can fly fairly well with the Duckworks mod. 
The Mod author has taken note of what the original AH author has said, and he can get his mods out quicker on flightsim.to. (daily updates at the moment).
As AH fix their plane, he will gradually remove his own temporary fixes from his mod, so it is only a stop-gap solution, but he is also attending to and improving things that AH might never get around to. 

There are lots of improvement packs on fs.to for virtually all of the Asobo default aircraft, and all of them are good and only enhance the experience.  The TBM being the best example.

By the way, the premise that the original AH model flies exactly like it should in real life was proven to be false, as the original author missed some critical flight model data out by mistake, as in response to asanosho earlier.  Just because he was commissioned to do the flight model doesn't mean to say he is 100% correct about everything.  In fact, some of his statements are just plain strange!  

In the DC-3, up to now, the following are in the mod pack: - 

• improved low-speed and in-ground-effect characteristics
• replaced windshield windows detail map, with more accurate and high res textures
• engine and flight model adjustments, stability, and accuracy improvements
• default camera position adjusted to a more usable position for most setups
• instrument views reworked with five more added for a total of ten (list available under notes at the bottom of this page)
• fuel consumption adjusted to better fit real-world numbers
• custom engine start-up logic
• carb heat indications fixed
• oil temperature and pressure reworked
• auxiliary tank fix (for the enhanced version, they are fine in the default)
• cockpit quickviews fix
• adds a heat blur effect to the engine exhaust
• fuel booster pump sound events corrected
• initial external lights rework (credit to @Delta2k5)
• PR, DE, and JP localization fixes (by LincolnCFCruz, St54Kevin, cubna4 )
• ... plus some minor tweaks and fixes with more to come in the future.

[Funky D 275]

13 hours ago, Alvega said:

That's why I changed the rudder_effectiveness in the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section from 1 to 10 and it helped a lot.

The flight model dev specifically stated the DC-3 has low rudder effectiveness on the runway in the video posted earlier... so while you can make this change, you're just making it easier, not fixing some kind of flight model problem.

2 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

This is simply wrong!  The original flight model guy has since admitted he accidentally left flight model data out in the original release, and this has not been addressed in a patch yet.

The fact that the DC-3 is inherently unstable is correct, but "unstable" in this context means the aircraft wants to pitch up when pulling power and pitch down when adding power at certain speeds. But no, this doesn't mean the aircraft should wing-over during takeoff 🙂

Personally, I would add the dev's lines to the config file and ignore any flight model mods. The dev did a ton of homework, but SU11 changed some of the flight characteristics and he is working on tweaking the config files so it flies as close to the book as possible again. The DC-3 should require neutral trim during takeoff, and it did with his test build... it'll just be a matter of time before these fixes make it into the sim.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that taildraggers are hard to take off and land. They want to ground loop once the tailwheel hits the ground during landing. They want to head straight for the grass when the tailwheel lifts off during takeoff. I have about 10hrs in a Decathlon and never came so close to losing my lunch landing any other plane. If it weren't for my instructor in the back seat yelling "yeee-haw!" as we came within feet of the edge of the runway, I would have ended up upside down, handing from my harness in the grass. You can land a tricycle gear plane with a ton of side load and the only consequence is the struts giving you a bit of a ride as the plane centers itself. In a tailwheel you aren't so lucky, and the lack of physical feedback in the sim should make it even harder.

[Alvega 2,126]

4 minutes ago, Funky D said:

The flight model dev specifically stated the DC-3 has low rudder effectiveness on the runway in the video posted earlier... so while you can make this change, you're just making it easier, not fixing some kind of flight model problem.

That really depends on what kind of controls one is using for rudder, the control sensitivity, etc. My pedals broke so I'm having to use the joystick twist axis for rudder, I didn't need this change when using the pedals and I never said it would fix a flight model problem. It just seems to make the plane more flyable for people using the joystick for rudder.

[Funky D 275]

11 minutes ago, Alvega said:

That really depends on what kind of controls one is using for rudder, the control sensitivity, etc. My pedals broke so I'm having to use the joystick twist axis for rudder, I didn't need this change when using the pedals and I never said it would fix a flight model problem. It just seems to make the plane more flyable for people using the joystick for rudder.

Thanks for the clarification... I just wanted to call out your post in the event it made people think this change was required or something was broken. As a fellow joystick rudder user, I feel your pain!

[Paul K 1,381]

18 hours ago, Alvega said:

That's why I changed the rudder_effectiveness in the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section from 1 to 10 and it helped a lot. No more grass roll outs.

Just tried that. Very beneficial, thank you.

[Paul K 1,381]

I've just installed the latest version of the Duckworks DC-3 Improvement mod (v 0.1.9) and can't praise it highly enough. Along with all the other improvements comes something I really welcome - in the cargo version of the aircraft, the boxes and crates are added and removed as you alter the payload slider. A simple thing, and nothing to do with the flying, but a pleasing refinement nonetheless. Great work, Imenes.

Link reminder:

https://flightsim.to/file/43893/duckworks-dc-3-improvement-mod