Why there can't be a detailed passenger cabin in the B-314

[dragonflightdesign]

I've extracted this post from another thread as many people are querying the state of the passenger cabin. It applies to both the Prepar3D version and the MSFS version.

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To quote me from the PILOT'S support forum on Avsim:

"Unfortunately the interior in the Foynes replica is just wrong from nose to tail. At the time it was built, it was built with the best information available (hence the Pan Am colour scheme)  but much more has come to light since."

You just need to search "Boeing 314" in Google. Be careful though; much that is marked as Boeing B-314 is Sikorsky S-40/S-42, Martin M-130 and Boeing B-307/B-377.

Also a full passenger cabin willl never be done for one good reason: there isn't enough publically available information out there to model it. What is there in MSFS is representational only because it can be seen through the windows. Trust me - I've looked and looked when I was doing the Prepar3D version. I know where there is information (and colour photographs at that, taken by Bay Area photographer Clyde H. Sunderland) but

a) Visual China can't be bothered to look for them (the Pan American Heritage Foundation has tried to persuade them to do so). Visual China bought Getty who bought Clyde's photographs from Pacific Aerial Surveys

b) if they actually knew which archives they were in (which according to PAHF, Visual China's responses indicated that they most likely don't know), the cost per photograph for commercial use would be too high.

I also know from talking to the Boeing archivists (not emailing) that Boeing do not have any additional information on the Model 314 over and above what is shown on their Archives website. The Smithsonian Museum were the recipients of the last remaining Model 314 archives from Boeing which consists of one Flight Operations Manual, one Maintenance Manual and the Rigging Manual (again, a phone call). The British Airways BOAC archives are non-searchable (except manually) and their archivists are volunteers who simply don't have the time to deal with small requests like mine (two phone calls).

That, to my regret, is a complete dead end.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by dragonflightdesign

[Dillon]

16 hours ago, dragonflightdesign said:

I've extracted this post from another thread as many people are querying the state of the passenger cabin. It applies to both the Prepar3D version and the MSFS version.

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That, to my regret, is a complete dead end.

 

As I stated in another thread, "You can't be a purist with nothing to go on and then turn around and dismiss what little we do have."😐  This is concerning the Foynes Museum.  A little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing...

Edited March 20, 2023 by Dillon

[qqwertz]

I can fully understand that getting required information on the plane is extremely difficult, and an accurate representation of the cabin is likely impossible. Having said that, I would advocate for a bit of artistic freedom. To me, a big part of the 314's appeal is that it flew in an era when being a passenger was still very exclusive. Having a luxury cabin in the model, even if it is only inspired by the interior of other airplanes from that time, would let us modern cattle class passengers marvel a little at the beauty of travelling back then.

Peter

[honanhal]

I understand the issues with the very limited documentary evidence of the 314 interior, but looking at the screenshots side by side with pictures of an operational 314 (NOT the museum), it's beyond obvious that something about the scale of the sim model cabin is completely wrong. The cabin looks absolutely cavernous, when the in pictures, if anything, it looks quite cramped.

I assume the overall dimensions of the space are correct based on the model, so my guess is that the seats and tables are simply too small, possibly by as much as a factor of 2?

Anyway, I really have to disagree with the people saying the cabin doesn't matter for this aircraft. I frankly have relatively little interest in the flying part of these old birds. With all due respect to the folks that built and flew them, they're kind of a pain to operate...we've come a long way! But that mystique of flying in the interwar period, now that's really something. And being able to imagine what it was like to fly on these things is central to capturing that. These are more like the Titanic than like a 777, you know?

James

[FlyRudy]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:29 AM, dragonflightdesign said:

Also a full passenger cabin willl never be done for one good reason: there isn't enough publically available information out there to model it.

Let me start by saying that I greatly admire the work that went into the excellent historical manual made by dragonflightdesign. Better than most books about the B-314. However, I do not share the pessimistic view that a plausible interior cannot be done. There are color movies and verbal descriptions which give us hints of what it must have been.

e.g. from Popular Mechanics 1938, page 670 ff: "Entering the passenger deck by a side door, you step down three steps into the dining saloon and recreation center, the largest room in the ship with the exception of the control room on the upper deck. The ten and one-half by twelve-foot dinning room has a gay color scheme, with a spirited blue pattern on furniture upholstery, rich carpeting and wall of silvery beige…
There are five dining tables of polished black walnut and deeply upholstered chairs for fifteen persons to be served at a time…
Going aft, you pass through three standard compartments, each with floor dimensions of seven and one-half by twelve feet and a height of seven and one-half feet. Seats are upholstered in beige wool tapestry, tailored with leather trimmings."

I do believe that color schemes and seating layouts were different in different ships and times (civilian use vs. military use).

On 3/21/2023 at 3:26 AM, honanhal said:

Anyway, I really have to disagree with the people saying the cabin doesn't matter for this aircraft.

I do agree with James that the cabin does matter in this particular flying boat because of the historic dimension. Hopefully someone will be able to improve on what is currently provided.

Rüdiger

[Dillon]

Let it be said and I speak for everyone mostly who's remotly interested in this bird,  We all want as much of the B314 as possible.  This is probably more so than any other aircraft in this period or since.  It's not acceptable to half do the B314 at this point in time.  Those iconic posters of flying to far away lands, we want the whole cabin modeled, and the cockpit done right in all areas (your 95% with the cockpit).  So it's up to Pilots, they can be revolutionary with this aircraft or sit back and watch someone else do it better down the road (and in turn get major sales). 

If I were Pilots I'd use the layout of the cabin as a blueprint located at the Foyness Museum (embrace the data we have), clean up the cockpit windows and watch the cash roll in.  Imagine a Youtube promo video showing one in the cockpit opening the floor door where you can go down the stairs into the full cabin all the way to the rear.  Luggage in various compartments etc.  That's one virtual flight I'd have to take (SFO-SBA-PHLO then on to Tahiti).👍 

For God's sake man (Star Trek - Lenard McCoy), give your customers what they want instead of saying what can't be done.🙃😁

If I learn anything from Asobo/Microsoft and simming, what many said couldn't be done was done.

  

Edited March 22, 2023 by Dillon

[FlyRudy]

Looking at YT videos ( "Overnight to Hawaii"- upper 2 pics; "PanAm clippers at war" - lower 2 pics) one can see that the furniture had blue upholstery. The light grey wallpaper has a pattern of a world map. The same pattern can be seen in a b/w picture of FDR's birthday on the Dixie Clipper.

However, I could not find pictures/movies with the green flooring and walls on the flight deck as currently used by PILOT'S. Neither did I see the red color of the wall behind the pilots. Artistic license?

But the discussion about colors and furniture is secondary and should not distract the developers of first perfecting the flight parameters.

[dragonflightdesign]

Don't forget you are looking at a film that has had well over seventy years to start deteriorating. As we don't know its provenance, we could also be looking at a copy of a copy of a copy, etc. with all the additional colour changes that will bring. As stated in the manual, the colours are derived from those specified by Boeing from the DuPont Duco range. A film of that age, unless stored in climate controlled conditions, cannot possibly be showing the colours as seen by the camera lens on the day it was filmed. 

Somewhere in my notes is comment from a crew member that 'their aircraft' (reg/hull number not specified) had a burgundy curtain separating the navigation cabin from the two pilots to prevent light leakage at night. For all I know, that could have been just that aircraft but it was there and I used it.

 

[Dillon]

WU13: Oceania - April 2023

The timing of this is great for an updated B314...😁😎

[IanFisher]

I'm probably in the minority by saying that I'm not at all bothered about a well modelled cabin. For me I never leave the cockpit anyway. More interested in the systems, flight model, accurate fuel distribution etc. The current P3D version as patched up by Dai ticks all the boxes. I hope the clipper for you MSFS types will eventually be updated to the current P3D standard.

[Charles KS]

Spot on Ian.  Spare me the weeping and gnashing of teeth about upholstery colours when the gyro pilot barely works and many switches and knobs are not operational.  Fix the essentials before pandering to those who want to walk through a cabin.

[Dillon]

21 hours ago, Charles KS said:

Spot on Ian.  Spare me the weeping and gnashing of teeth about upholstery colours when the gyro pilot barely works and many switches and knobs are not operational.  Fix the essentials before pandering to those who want to walk through a cabin.

Just so you know Pilot's was planning on doing two versions depending on how the 'lite' version sales.  So if you want what your asking for visuals would be the better option to tackle first to get sales up for the for more detailed systems version later on...

Edited March 25, 2023 by Dillon

[Charles KS]

They are hardly mutually exclusive issues.  Get the nice drapery and table cloth patterns right for the arcade game players while getting systems right for those who want to … oh I don’t know… actually fly the aircraft.

[Dillon]

31 minutes ago, Charles KS said:

They are hardly mutually exclusive issues.  Get the nice drapery and table cloth patterns right for the arcade game players while getting systems right for those who want to … oh I don’t know… actually fly the aircraft.

Which one do you think will sell the most?  I actually agree with you concerning the systems but for an FS model the visuals have to be right as well.  This is not an XPlane release.  The XBOX crowd has allot of sway and generates the most revenue for Microsoft despite us purist.😐  

[Charles KS]

Agree.  But my point is to work on both.  At the same time.  Contemporaneously. Simultaneously.  As in walking a chewing gum together.