40 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

Why do you think that?

because the whole attraction of 4K is there is no aliasing to anti.

4K at 2x AA is roughly equivlent to 8K.

and

AA technologies mostly aimed at games consoles running on 720p displays where aliasing really is a problem.

That is not saying roads or the MD85 dont have PBR issues that created jagged reflections or shadows, nor is it saying that there are not other instances other than clouds that may actually break AA.

I actually found recently I can turn shadow quality up to max without any fps hit and suddenly the jagged cockpit shadows I complained about before are all fixed.

40 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

offer TAA and eliminate the shimmering.

again, what timestamp in that video I just posted are you talking about?

the lod popping on the trees just after takoff? (I think that has also been fixed since I made that video, not checked)

No, AA doesnt fix that

XPD-13910 – Tree rendering distance massively reduced.

Public Beta – 12.04r3 Emergency fix for tree rendering distances

should have done.

also, MSFS now has TAA... rofl, so Asobo thought going for

was a good idea....

Ouch, cant imagine anyone is happy with that. Can you at least turn it off or is everyone now stuck with xbox one graphics to try and boost their xbox one rating? 

Thank goodness Laminar dont need to take that kind of pressure seriously tbh.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

@mSparks

If you show a video where the scene moves at high speed it is impossible to see AA problems.
Defective AA is visible in slow motion where you can see the "jagged pattern of the graphics as you move".
In your video you see the AA bug at 0:24.
When you push on the throttle the scene moves slowly, and you can see the wooden shaft of the windsock flickering, and the pier on the sea flickering.

I don't know if the latest patch fixed all AA problems in XP12.
I know for sure that a month ago the AA worked really badly, much worse than XP10 and 11.

 

17 minutes ago, efis007 said:

I know for sure that a month ago the AA worked really badly, much worse than XP10 and 11.

absolutely nothing in that video is remotely connected to aliased lines, that would look like:

AA OFF

instead of AA On

So, guaranteed way to ensure all those issues are never fixed, report them as "AA not working" and get told "you crazy"

 

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

4K at 2x AA is roughly equivlent to 8K.

For SSAA yes, that would be right. Because it´s full screen anti aliasing. For MSAA this is not correct, because MSAA is applied only to the edges of the polygons. So it has nothing to do with your statement above.
And second i told you that the ghosting is not a issue anymore, because of velocity clamping.
 

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

because the whole attraction of 4K is there is no aliasing to anti.

Tell me, why are you ignoring what I'm saying. I drive 4K and I have no end of shimmering with MSAA. Why the hell do you ignore what I say. If I didn't have these problems why would I be writing here? Don't be angry with me, but your statements are so far from reality, I'm speechless.

Edit:
 

So watch this video, but you need to ignore the mess with the clouds, because this is really addressed. But all other shimmering is exactly what i´m seeing with 8x MSAA and 4K.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by Skylon5000

Wait, is he really back to you don't need AA in 4K again?  Holy full circle batman.... 

51 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

Tell me, why are you ignoring what I'm saying.

Would you listen to me if I started insisting the ground effect on this helicopter is broken LR need to fix it by introducing streaming orthogrammetry?

Or would you just be like, nah man, you crazy, that isn't a helicopter and streaming Ortho isn't going to do much for whatever you are complaining about, in fact photgrammetry would suck, because then the trees wouldn't shimmer and flicker in the wind.

Because that's basically what I hear and see for whatever you are complaining about.

Maybe you have a valid point, maybe you don't, but if you dont stop with blaming known/believed working solutions, or a lack of a solution to a problem not applicable to PC gaming, LR likely isn't going to take whatever you have to say particularly seriously either way.

IMHO.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

In your video you see the AA bug at 0:24.

The only thing I see wrong at 0:24 is this glitching in the background

which is a known and complex issue to do with getting DEM data from multiple sources, very much a WIP, made worse by my use of ortho bathemtry. 

You only see it near sea level, and is what is meant (aiui) when Ben says:

https://developer.x-plane.com/2023/02/testing-12-01-12-02-12-03/

Quote

• We’re not happy with how orthophotos and the new water system interact, but we need the more efficient VRAM system to fix this. I’ll post about orthophoto authoring as soon as we have more information.

It's also possible the new DSF tools build that dropped like a day or so ago goes a long way to lessening it, but not tried that yet.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

1 hour ago, Skylon5000 said:

 

 

I liked this video.
Ok, there is some light sparkle to the scene, but overall it didn't look as bad as I expected.

 

@mSparks

Timestamp 11:20 in your video, the signs on the runway jagghing and shimmering.
Maybe it's caused by the poor resolution of the video?
Could be.
But until you post high definition videos or high definition photos we will never know.

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

@mSparks

Timestamp 11:20 in your video, the signs on the runway jagghing and shimmering.
Maybe it's caused by the poor resolution of the video?

agreed, and I just captured that in a screenshot from XP running now bumped up to 8x AA and 16x asionblahblah filtering, this is zoomed in 400% to make it clear

This looks very similar to the artefacts on taxiway lines I saw recently up close and were also just mentioned, so looks like something is faulting/imperfect with 2D line drawing,

my best guess would be some kind of "z fighting" (rounding error drawing it partly under the runway), but I'll ask.

EDIT:Feedback

Round 1:

Quote

The system works? 

Round 2:

Quote

Its NOT texture bleed. The markings are an alpha-mask only texture and the color comes in algorithmically. So maybe that algo has issues. Its worth a proper bug report so someone looks at it at some point.

names redacted to protect the guilty.

Edited April 6, 20233 yr by mSparks

9 hours ago, efis007 said:

I liked this video.
Ok, there is some light sparkle to the scene, but overall it didn't look as bad as I expected.

 

Did you look this video at 4K with a native 4K screen? Because this video is native 4k. If not, you do a downsampling and the shimmering will reduce a lot. When i switch this video to 2K on my 4k native, the shimmering is much less.

That's why I was seeing very little shimmer, I saw 1080 video on my 1080 screen.

15 hours ago, psolk said:

Wait, is he really back to you don't need AA in 4K again?  Holy full circle batman.... 

"Don't need AA in 4K" is not the point.

The point is that if there is an artefacting problem in 4K that is not in 2K - the problem is not AA, and what is being reported is apparently only visible when

5 hours ago, Skylon5000 said:

Did you look this video at 4K with a native 4K screen?

I dont have 4K to investigate it, and with VR don't have plans to. My suggestions remain the same - use DisplayPort rather than HDMI, trying to use HDMI for 4K has a tendency to make a 4K display render at worse quality than 2K, because it goes into a reduced bandwidth mode, is more likely to kick off HDCP related issues, and HDMI spec and hardware is not the best solution for pumping that many pixels down a wire, that can also happen just watching the video - so for example, if someone else at 4K can't see what is being discussed, chances are the issue is the display hardware unique to the person seeing the artefacting - which is exactly what happened here, and this was only 2K over HDMI

On 4/5/2023 at 11:17 AM, mSparks said:

  

If its a problem everyone on 4K is experiencing it needs the same kind of dissection we just did for those runway lines.

that's all understood now, is actually caused by these two pixels

which actually come from "bleed" in the underlying asphalt texture, the "solution" is to increase the runway border, it won't be fixed any time soon. AA was working exactly as it should, TAA would not fair any better.

23 hours ago, Skylon5000 said:

I ask to consider the following video.

considered, lets just jump to the highlights, pun intended.

 

@mSparks

Let´s talk about trees only. It´s easier in this case. Jump to 1:02 and continue the movie, where the car drives to the gate. You see one tree left before the gate and one left of it. While the car moves to the gate, this trees shimmering with MSAA very strong. TAA elimates it completly. And in X-Plane you have thousands of trees nearby you and you can imagine how it looks when all trees are shimmering. This is what i´m talking about. It´s not possible to show the problem with a picture, we need vidoes to show this.

Now we take one specific pixel of that tree. Now we drive the car towards the tree, the position of the one pixel of the tree changes permanently and here comes the problem. Monitors consist of pixel grids, since the tree now changes position, the one pixel must now move within the grid. The pixel must now leave the last position in the grid and move into the next one. At the old positon off, at the new position on. And that causes the shimmering. Because you have no smooth change. So, yes MSAA smoothes the edges of the polygons without any issue, you are right, but MSAA (Maybe 32x MSAA 😁) can´t help with the moving pixel.

On the following picture you see the object (green) without TAA. In easy words the grey circle around the green object (I know the grey circle is hard to see, because where i have the picture from the background is black and better to see) is now the TAA method (The circle is now the same image but not a square) which smoothes the scene. Parts of the circle fills the next pixel position only a bit, so that the actual image information is distorted as little as possible. And that is the reason, that TAA will blurry a bit. The more FPS you have the less blurry it will be. All explained in my link above.
And the circle (In this example) makes sure that the movement of the pixel is no longer so choppy and shimmering, because in the moment the pixel moves, the gray circle fills the old position from the moved pixel a bit.

TAA would of course not solve all problems in X-Plane, e.g. the stairs in the shadows are not aliasing stairs but simply poorly resolved. In this point you are completely right. Everything that is poorly resolved, AA can not improve significantly, that is completely clear. But we have this issue also with objects which are highly resolved. But the shimmering in X-Plane would be 95% solved this way. And please remember, I have eliminated the shimmering as described above. But just with the many disadvantages mentioned. TAA consumes much less power than my XP11+HDR OFF+ OpenGL+16 AA crutch and  secondly, I could then use Vulkan and HDR again.

Edited April 6, 20233 yr by Skylon5000