Austin told me the anti-aliasing is not broken

[efis007 827]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

What TAA is doing is pretty obvious, it fixes detail by making everything blurry, and fixes sun shimmer by removing all the reflections. There is a name for those solutions in flight sim. FSX with motion blur

TAA has nothing to do with cinematic motion blur, and does not eliminate light reflections.
TAA - like other antialiasing - is just antialiasing and does the job of antialiasing, it doesn't generate "special effects".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_anti-aliasing
What makes TAA special compared to competing antialiasers (except DSLL3) is the image quality obtained with a low computational cost.
And the image quality isn't really blurry, it retains excellent detail even after it's been "smoothed" by anti-aliasing.
I extrapolated these photos from the video, observe the detail of the instruments.

Panel without AA

Panel with DLAA

Panel with TAA

As you can see, the TAA corrected all sawtooth artifacts without deteriorating the quality of the tools and lettering.
Indeed, even the lettering seems improved, and this translates (for the driver) into the possibility of having a perfectly detailed panel before his eyes, without serrations or shimmer on the instrument frames, and with perfectly legible lettering.

Edited April 7 by efis007

[mSparks 2,012]

16 minutes ago, efis007 said:

it doesn't generate "special effects".

it blurs them out, based on whether they existed or not in previous frames, such as the highlights and reflections on the back window and boot of the cars in forza, or ghosting the tails of the cars in that matrix screenshot.

"temporal" means "over time", what it does is blur pixels similar to plain AA but only if they are moving relative to the scene over time, its very very similar to a motion blur effect, just with (theoretically) reduced intensity based on motion vectors, when that reduced intensity goes wrong you get ghosting, when it goes right at best you dont get the "moving ants" as you hit the nyquist limit.  

Edited April 7 by mSparks

[Franz007 323]

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

TAA has nothing to do with cinematic motion blur, and does not eliminate light reflections.
TAA - like other antialiasing - is just antialiasing and does the job of antialiasing, it doesn't generate "special effects".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_anti-aliasing
What makes TAA special compared to competing antialiasers (except DSLL3) is the image quality obtained with a low computational cost.
And the image quality isn't really blurry, it retains excellent detail even after it's been "smoothed" by anti-aliasing.
I extrapolated these photos from the video, observe the detail of the instruments.

Panel without AA

Panel with DLAA

Panel with TAA

As you can see, the TAA corrected all sawtooth artifacts without deteriorating the quality of the tools and lettering.
Indeed, even the lettering seems improved, and this translates (for the driver) into the possibility of having a perfectly detailed panel before his eyes, without serrations or shimmer on the instrument frames, and with perfectly legible lettering.

I don't see any difference beetween "panel without AA" and "panel with TAA"....can someone see any?

[Daube 287]

  

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

it blurs them out, based on whether they existed or not in previous frames, such as the highlights and reflections on the back window and boot of the cars in forza, or ghosting the tails of the cars in that matrix screenshot.

"temporal" means "over time", what it does is blur pixels similar to plain AA but only if they are moving relative to the scene over time, its very very similar to a motion blur effect, just with (theoretically) reduced intensity based on motion vectors, when that reduced intensity goes wrong you get ghosting, when it goes right at best you dont get the "moving ants" as you hit the nyquist limit.  

Yes, we all know what TAA means, and we all know the benefits of it, contrary to you. The fact is that TAA is the most efficient AA to eliminate both the aliasing AND the shimmers, and it does that with a much smaller FPS impact than other techniques. 

Also, it IS very efficient also at 1080p, and perfect in VR. I fly only in VR, with a Pico4 (2160x2160) which replaced my Lenovo Explorer (1440x1440) which I used for the last 4 years or so. I know very well how our sims look like in VR and what really matters. TAA is the first AA that finally brought me a GOOD AA without any shimmering and without killing my FPS. That's a fact. And I really wish I could benefit from TAA in XPlane12 in VR.

Edited April 7 by Daube

[Daube 287]

4 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

I don't see any difference beetween "panel without AA" and "panel with TAA"....can someone see any?

I think the borders of the two MFDs (the grey plastic outer border, like near the vetical yellow line on the right of the vertical speed indicator) is quite an obvious difference.

Edited April 7 by Daube

[mSparks 2,012]

18 minutes ago, Daube said:

The fact is that TAA is the most efficient AA to eliminate both the aliasing AND the shimmers

depends how you define "efficient".

Xplane costing $400 a copy to cover the development cost of TAA wouldn't be very efficient imho, especially assuming they end up with Cyberpunk 2077 or Matrix awakens or MSFS quality AA after a couple of years investing in it.

Yes, MSFS

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/ghosting-on-aircraft-objects/580101/3

Quote

Quote

In this video, you can see the ghosting effects on the objects in the background, as well as some of the ghosting flickering on the aircraft near the wings and the landing gear.

This isn’t a bug, but it is a side effect of TAA. Switch to clear skies and it will be hardly noticeable. It’s not a bug either in the classic sense, in that it is working as intended, but has these effects.

Here’s a video I uploaded back in February 2021 showing the effect. It’s been there since release.

It’s at its worst when there are clouds behind the object moving. When I first saw it, a trail behind another plane on my flank, I thought it was some kind of vapour trail.

18 minutes ago, Daube said:

TAA is the first AA that finally brought me a GOOD AA

No, that will be DLSS. for XPlane we get that with FSR3, which is very much a WIP aiui (just hard like TAA, and absolutely no timeframe available, I dont expect it soon), WIP that would need to stop to concentrate on TAA instead.

 

Edited April 7 by mSparks

[Franz007 323]

49 minutes ago, Daube said:

I think the borders of the two MFDs (the grey plastic outer border, like near the vetical yellow line on the right of the vertical speed indicator) is quite an obvious difference.

Ah yes, i see that now.

[efis007 827]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

it blurs them out, based on whether they existed or not in previous frames, such as the highlights and reflections on the back window and boot of the cars in forza, or ghosting the tails of the cars in that matrix screenshot.

"temporal" means "over time", what it does is blur pixels similar to plain AA but only if they are moving relative to the scene over time, its very very similar to a motion blur effect, just with (theoretically) reduced intensity based on motion vectors, when that reduced intensity goes wrong you get ghosting, when it goes right at best you dont get the "moving ants" as you hit the nyquist limit.  

Let's start from an assumption: all AAs blur the image. 👍
The real question is which AA is most effective at eliminating jaggies without introducing visible blurring.
Many people on the web claim that TAA introduces visible blurring, and the image is worse.
From the videos that I have been able to view this theory seems to be false.

Unfortunately as I said before it is not possible to show the effectiveness of TAA with XP12 because it doesn't work with XP12, so we have to watch the MSFS videos if we want to see the TAA in action on a civilian flight simulator.

Let's watch this video.
What specifically needs to be observed?
The quality (of the AA) on the panel and on the scenery.

The video starts with anti-aliasing set to DLSS.
You see blurry mountains and panel, the image quality is not satisfactory. 🤔

But then at 3:30 the TAA anti-aliasing is set, and the image quality improves dramatically, the mountains are more detailed, the panel lettering is more detailed, everything becomes more detailed. 

If... according to common thought... TAA blurs the image and makes it uglier, why do these videos demonstrate the exact opposite of that common thought?
In short, after watching this video can we still say that TAA blurs the image to such an extent that it is unwatchable or worse than other AAs?
🙄

We must keep in mind that the job of a good AA is not just to improve the image by eliminating shimmer and jaggies.
A good AA I have to do that process impacting as little as possible on pc performance.
If an AA improves the image a lot, but impacts the PC load 8 times, then it's a bad AA. 🤕
Currently XP has (unfortunately)  this type of AA: - an antialiasing that improves image quality little at the cost of a lot of effort on the pc.
Unfortunately we are far from the results in the "high quality / low load" ratio that would be obtainable with a TAA type antialiasing.

[mSparks 2,012]

28 minutes ago, efis007 said:

Let's start from an assumption: all AAs blur the image. 👍

completely agree.

29 minutes ago, efis007 said:

Many people on the web claim that TAA introduces visible blurring, and the image is worse.

lets build on the above assumption, all blurring is bad.

But some can be tolerated if the visual impact that blurring is not worse than the jagged edges and marching ants that are the sole reason a blur effect is being applied.

AA removes with the jagged edges.

the T in TAA removes the marching ants

32 minutes ago, efis007 said:

Many people on the web claim that TAA introduces visible blurring, and the image is worse.
From the videos that I have been able to view this theory seems to be false.

 given a choice between

and marching ants, Ill take marching ants all day every day.

Plus there are now infinitely better solutions than TAA and DLSS, which is why Laminar are working on them, while others are licking their wounds.

https://wccftech.com/boundary-ea-launch-qa-devs-explain-long-delays-confirm-removal-of-dlss-and-rtx-in-favor-of-fsr2-and-xess/

[Daube 287]

22 minutes ago, mSparks said:

completely agree.

lets build on the above assumption, all blurring is bad.

But some can be tolerated if the visual impact that blurring is not worse than the jagged edges and marching ants that are the sole reason a blur effect is being applied.

AA removes with the jagged edges.

the T in TAA removes the marching ants

 given a choice between

and marching ants, Ill take marching ants all day every day.

Plus there are now infinitely better solutions than TAA and DLSS, which is why Laminar are working on them, while others are licking their wounds.

https://wccftech.com/boundary-ea-launch-qa-devs-explain-long-delays-confirm-removal-of-dlss-and-rtx-in-favor-of-fsr2-and-xess/

Unfortunately, excepted that screenshot with ghosting cars (like the ghosting of the wings that were posted here by somebody in XP12 by the way), I don't see anything in your screenshots that are going against the TAA choice. If you like marching ants, good for you, we all know you have strange tastes anyways. But nobody else likes them.

But maybe, instead of focusing on that poor ghosting example above (which is strangely not visible at all in the previous video above, and which we will hardly suffer from in a cockpit), maybe you could point us to what exactly is looking bad in the racing game screenshots according to you ? Ah, and please, this time please try to keep in mind that both sequences (left and right) are not taken at the same time of day nor with same weather, so stop complaining about the lack of reflected clouds and sun in the back windows please 😄

Edited April 7 by Daube

[Skylon5000 14]

44 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Plus there are now infinitely better solutions than TAA and DLSS, which is why Laminar are working on them, while others are licking their wounds.

Do you have a source for this? I'd be happy if they did something, no matter what, it doesn't have to be TAA, but the main thing is that the shimmering  finally goes away.

Putting aside our TAA discussion here. I once created a short 4K video in XP12, with a view of trees with a fence in the foreground. Here you can see all the madness that XP does with MSAA. It shimmers like hell.

I've never uploaded a video to Youtube before. Anyway, the video is currently only displayed in HD, but even there you can see the shimmer hell. I read on the Internet that it can take hours until the video appears in 4K. Maybe someone knows something.
 

 

[mSparks 2,012]

1 hour ago, Daube said:

I don't see anything in your screenshots that are going against the TAA choice

compare the backs of the cars and the trees.

Just as obvious issues as marching ants, if not worse, I can ignore marching ants as easily as real world sun reflecting off the leaves of the trees as you fly by 

59 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

video is currently only displayed in HD, but even there you can see the shimmer hell

glancing over dinner, pretty sure that is

XPD-13910 – Tree rendering distance massively reduced.

marked as fixed in 11.05b1. does it still do it on the latest beta?

[Skylon5000 14]

7 minutes ago, mSparks said:

marked as fixed in 11.05b1. does it still do it on the latest beta?

I´m on 12.05b2 and second not only the trees are shimmering. The fence and the lines of the road before the fence are shimmering the same.

[Daube 287]

14 minutes ago, mSparks said:

compare the backs of the cars and the trees.

Just as obvious issues as marching ants, if not worse, I can ignore marching ants as easily as real world sun reflecting off the leaves of the trees as you fly by 

Yes, I just did that a few times. Indeed, the back of the cars look much better in TAA with less shimering. Reflections are good in both cases, putting aside the different lighting conditions and cloud density. Trees do appear a bit blurry though, when scrolling fast. Not a big issue though, as the trees still look good, and don't produce any shimmering with TAA.

14 minutes ago, mSparks said:

glancing over dinner, pretty sure that is

XPD-13910 – Tree rendering distance massively reduced.

marked as fixed in 11.05b1. does it still do it on the latest beta?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the shimmers on the trees, not about the LOD change...

[mSparks 2,012]

50 minutes ago, Daube said:

with less shimering

not having reflections will do that yes, if reflections and realistic lighting annoy you FSX and XP11 is right there waiting for you.