Austin told me the anti-aliasing is not broken

[Daube 287]

Ahah, you still pretend TAA disables the reflection ? And to that, you now add that TAA disables the realistic lighting too?

I mean, you've said a few ridiculous things in the past, but you're now reaching a whole new level. Can't wait to see what kind of stuff you'll make up next 😄

[MrBitstFlyer 3,645]

2 hours ago, Daube said:

Trees do appear a bit blurry though, when scrolling fast. Not a big issue though

If that isn't a big issue, then sharper trees with some shimmering isn't either 😉

[Skylon5000 14]

32 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

If that isn't a big issue, then sharper trees with some shimmering isn't either 😉

I cannot agree here. The problem with shimmering is that it literally jumps into your eye. It's like you're flying through the scenery and someone is constantly turning the lights on and off. Sounds dorky, I know. I just can't find another appropriate description right now.
I personally don't care about the usual stairs because of bad anti-aliasing, you only see that when you zoom in. And even if the tree is a bit blurry, you only see that when you look really closely at the tree. When I fly over the scenery in an airplane, I can't see if the tree is blurry or not anyway. But the shimmering screams at you. It also doesn't matter how far away from the trees I am and if I can still make out details. They just shimmering even from a long distance. And it is not one tree that shimmers, but thousands at once. That is the big difference.

 

 

Edited April 7 by Skylon5000

[MrBitstFlyer 3,645]

7 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

38 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

If that isn't a big issue, then sharper trees with some shimmering isn't either 😉

I cannot agree here. The problem with shimmering is that it literally jumps into your eye.

'literally into your eye' is exactly what I feel when I load up MSFS - the smudged and blurry trees, and the 'ghost' streaks behind anything moving, all scream at me!  I never used to feel that about MSFS, and I had many hours with it, but after using XP12 for a few days the trees in MSFs looked awful.  The melted photogrammetry buildings up close just add to my sense of smudge.  The small amount of shimmering I see in XP12 is minor in comparison.

We are all different, so different things will affect us in different ways.  I believe anybody who prefers MSFS or XP12 because we will all choose the sim with the fewest issues to our eyes.

[Skylon5000 14]

15 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

The melted photogrammetry buildings

Oh yes. That is the hell. I also don't understand at all why this is so hyped. It's so creepy in places that you can't stand it. But at least everything is razor sharp and nothing shimmers. I have the MSFS, but I would never use it as my simulator. I didn't get more than 10 minutes of flight time on it. For me, the best compromise at the moment is the XP11 with my crazy configuration.

Everything is a compromise, no question about it. I think the discussion here is so boiled up, because simply untruths are told what TAA concerns.

But as said, the shimmering in XP12 is a problem, a really problem which needs to be sorted out. Whether it's TAA or NextGen AA doesn't matter.
 

15 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

We are all different, so different things will affect us in different ways.  I believe anybody who prefers MSFS or XP12 because we will all choose the sim with the fewest issues to our eyes.

+1

Edited April 7 by Skylon5000

[mSparks 2,012]

5 hours ago, Daube said:

TAA disables the reflection

no, it is deleting them because it thinks they are artifacts, same way as it left ghosting in that matrix awakens screenshot, its a bug in TAA in forza obvious from the video someone else posted, in fact about the only obvious difference between TAA and MSAA in that video, because the artwork is tuned enough to not have marching ants in the first place.

[efis007 827]

So according to this theory the TAA should also eliminate all the stars in the MSFS night sky because it believes that those glitters are artifacts.
To understand if it's true, just ask the MSFS pilots on the other forum and ask them to tell us if the TAA eliminates reflections.

[mSparks 2,012]

12 minutes ago, efis007 said:

So according to this theory the TAA should also eliminate all the stars in the MSFS night sky because it believes that those glitters are artifacts.
To understand if it's true, just ask the MSFS pilots on the other forum and ask them to tell us if the TAA eliminates reflections.

if the stars were changing fast enough from one frame to the next, yes .. but they .. dont.

in oversimplified terms, TAA is motion blur, where the "motion vectors" contain the blurring within the area/object that moved, thats where the ghosting in matrix awakens came from (bug in the/missing motion vectors that let the motion blur escape), and why the back window has no reflections (moving so much all the reflections are motion blurred away within the window frame).

Or look at it another way, the only advantage of TAA over AA is removing marching ants. all other differences are unwanted side effects. 

Edited April 8 by mSparks

[Daube 287]

On 4/8/2023 at 12:46 AM, mSparks said:

no, it is deleting them because it thinks they are artifacts

It's not deleting them either, else why can we see the reflection of the small flags above the road on the back window of the car when it passes under them ?

Probably YOU cannot see them, just like YOU cannot see the antialising problems in XPlane.

 

[mSparks 2,012]

20 minutes ago, Daube said:

It's not deleting them either, else why can we see the reflection of the small flags above the road on the back window of the car when it passes under them ?

Probably YOU cannot see them, just like YOU cannot see the antialising problems in XPlane.

 

the "deletion" comes from motion blurring static dark window over changing light highlights, it only happens where there is motion compared to the motion vectors.

TAA is modified motion blur, fundamentally it is doing this to the image

but keeps the clean edges by (theoretically) constraining the blur inside the object via motion vectors.

That is also what makes it so hard to get bug free, because defining the motion vectors is a hard problem that you can only find when its bad by spotting the glitches, like blurred out reflections on the windows or overly blurred trees.

[efis007 827]

The motion blur effect is a relationship between long shutter aperture, frame rate, and the speed of the framed object.
It takes place in cinematrography with cameras.
If I have a camera filming a fast moving car at 20 frames, I will see the car very blurry.
If I shoot at 200 frames the same car will look much more detailed and almost nothing blurry.
So motion blur is strictly dependent on 2 factors: framerate and speed of the shooting object.
If TAA were motion blur it could never eliminate jaggies in completely stationary objects.
A motion blur type effect, in order to work, always needs that there is movement (ie a displacement!) on the framed object.


But if the object stays completely still there can be no motion blur effect, so I should see the object like this:

If the TAA were a motion blur, every time I frame the cockpit of the plane without ever moving with the mouse I should see the cockpit all jagged (the motion blur effect can't smooth a stationary object!)
An anti-aliasing yes.
And the TAA does it, it manages to carry out its antialiasing action even with the object completely stopped.
So TAA is not a motion blur effect!

[mSparks 2,012]

56 minutes ago, efis007 said:

blur effect, so I should see the object like this:

it still does normal AA.

56 minutes ago, efis007 said:

the cockpit all jagged

it still does normal AA

56 minutes ago, efis007 said:

, it manages to carry out its antialiasing action even with the object completely stopped.

it still does normal AA

56 minutes ago, efis007 said:

So TAA is not a motion blur effect!

how else do you create ghosting like this then?

Edited April 9 by mSparks

[Skylon5000 14]

On 4/7/2023 at 4:26 PM, Skylon5000 said:

Plus there are now infinitely better solutions than TAA and DLSS, which is why Laminar are working on them, while others are licking their wounds.

@mSparks

I had already asked you above if you have a source for this? I have been looking for an official statement from LR for a long time.

[mSparks 2,012]

14 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

@mSparks

I had already asked you above if you have a source for this? I have been looking for an official statement from LR for a long time.

The place to go for official source is

https://developer.x-plane.com/blog/

They will often answer specific questions in the comments, the answers from LR staff have a blue background.

Take their word and no one elses, its easy to misinterpret what they have said.

Currently the key issue aiui is the VRAM management, that keeps cropping up a lot in terms of they want to do xxxx but need GPU memory handling perfected first. It is understood that a lot of artifacts, glitching, blurry stuff, jagged stuff etc has it's roots in that misbehaving.

This is the main reason I think screenshots and videos of any issues now are important, not just for understanding them, but for revsisting to see their state once they have that nailed down.

 

[Skylon5000 14]

@mSparks

I can't find anything that specifically addresses the anti-aliasing issues. Only regarding MSAA that Ben writes it would be on his radar. So where does it say exactly, "Laminar are working on them"?
And even FSR (from 2.0) needs Motion Vector. Honestly, I'm sure we won't be able to expect anything from LR in the next few years. You have to be absolutely realistic about that.

This gives the impression that anti-aliasing is solved for them:

Rendering

• Complete
  • Improve anti-aliasing performance and results
  • Re-implement projection warping

Edited April 9 by Skylon5000