2 hours ago, Daube said:

@mSparks: I see some mentions of "flickering", but isn't it "shimmering" instead ? Because, of course the screenshots look good, but I think people is more complaining about the behavior of the antialiasing in moving pictures

My points basically boil down to:

1. we all spent some time trying to debug AA, in the end what most people were talking about had nothing to do with AA, but, aiui Cameron from XA, working 1 on 1 with a user tracked down a situation where AA would stop working and that was just fixed.

2. There are lots sources of jagged edges and glitches, completely unrelated to AA, that are a combination of sacrifices that have to be made when lowering settings, to stuff just not working, these are being worked on by LR and any real detail on when they are happening and why is helpful, just complaining "it dont work" isnt helpful.

3. trying to describe the visual problems remaining with words just isnt helpful, no one but the author has a clue exactly what they are talking about.

12 hours ago, mSparks said:

My points basically boil down to:

1. we all spent some time trying to debug AA, in the end what most people were talking about had nothing to do with AA, but, aiui Cameron from XA, working 1 on 1 with a user tracked down a situation where AA would stop working and that was just fixed.

2. There are lots sources of jagged edges and glitches, completely unrelated to AA, that are a combination of sacrifices that have to be made when lowering settings, to stuff just not working, these are being worked on by LR and any real detail on when they are happening and why is helpful, just complaining "it dont work" isnt helpful.

3. trying to describe the visual problems remaining with words just isnt helpful, no one but the author has a clue exactly what they are talking about.

You have become famous (on social networks where x-plane groups are) for your ability to dissect this AA issue. But not in a good way.

We don't really care what expensive 4K monitor you have or how your nvidia does the AA processing, the default AA on x-plane 12 is simply broken. Launch MSFS and AA is working as it should. Launch x-plane and AA looks like it's not even there. 

15 minutes ago, bogdansrb said:

You have become famous (on social networks where x-plane groups are) for your ability to dissect this AA issue. But not in a good way.

I'm "famous" for lots of things, AA related stuff isn't one of them.

I did once help someone solve this "broken AA" issue, when everyone else had lost patience with them and were resorting to personal attacks.

  

but that was years ago and I'm not sure if they are even still around.

@mSparks

I know what you mean when you say that there are situations where AA is not the problem at all. Or let's say it's not exclusively AA at that moment. You can see that, for example, in the fact that the default taxi lines etc. shimmer much less than those of Airport Environment HD, for example. You can also see this very clearly in the default scenery of X-Plane, which shimmers like hell. If you use e.g. Ortho it is much better.

But, now comes the big but. I explained above that with XP11 + OpenGL + HDR OFF + AA 16x an absolutely shimmer-free XP is possible. And here you would then have to explain to me why I can then manage this, although it is supposedly not due to AA, or in other words AA can't help with certain textures. The problem with my configuration, however, is that I fry my RTX3090 graphics card with 16x AA and then also have to do without HDR. As we know stupid at night.

And TAA solves these problems, no matter if the XP Default Scenery or Default Taxi Lines or OrthoXP are used. This is due to the way how TAA works. Unlike MSAA, TAA is applied to the whole scene, but MSAA is applied only to the edges of the polygons. TAA was designed to do just that, to focus on AA in motion. The ghosting you mention above is eliminated by velocity clamping.

Exact information about the TAA technique can be found here:

https://developer.unigine.com/en/docs/latest/principles/render/antialiasing/taa?rlang=cpp

Of course all this is a huge effort for Laminar, but in all forums, Discord wherever, this is discussed, we are in 2023 and see the techniques in other simulators/games how it works.

 

 

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by Skylon5000

On 3/21/2023 at 12:49 AM, 2reds2whites said:

You're not surprised that the person who created X-plane, who is the founder and owner of Laminar Research, is clueless about a basic graphics issue? 

 

I'm clueless about problems people find in my add ons.  No matter how basic they are.  That's why we have an update process.  

Every single 3rd party developer is clueless about problems in their add ons until they get reported.  

Laminar are clueless about many problems in an X-Plane version run.  

Asobo have a 10 year update plan, because they're clueless about problems that present themselves in MSFS until they get reported.  

I'm surprised you're not aware of this.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by GoranM

4 hours ago, Skylon5000 said:

or in other words AA can't help with certain texture

"AA" is a very simple algorithm that helps (when working) with a very specific problem - being able to see individual pixels on the screen.

Anything that is not a problem of being able to see individual pixels is a completely different problem with a completely different solution.

I want those problems solved as much as anyone else, but unless they are communicated effectively there is no hope of LR finding a solution.

4 hours ago, Skylon5000 said:

fact that the default taxi lines etc.

Oh hey, I did notice some artifacts on taxi lines the other evening, while on max settings, I was busy comparing landing gear height with rw pictures at the time and didnt get time to investigate it.

Is this something you have already reported to LR? how did they respond?

4 hours ago, mSparks said:

I'm "famous" for lots of things, AA related stuff isn't one of them.

You have posted two incredible photographs. 👏

A photo that has been downscaled from high definition to low definition 928 x 523 pixel (the resizing it's an old trick to mask the AA bug)...

... and another photograph, poor quality, low definition 1109 x 726 pixel, completely out of focus ... 

... and you allow yourself to write: "I'm famous for lots of things, AA related stuff isn't one of them".

I assume all intelligent readers have already guessed what you are famous for. 😆

 

(Psstt... 🤫 .... next time you want to prove the absence of AA bugs use photos downscaled to 400 x 200 pixels, but please don't tell anyone that I have revealed this trick to you  🙏 )

14 minutes ago, efis007 said:

and another photograph, poor quality, low definition 1109 x 726 pixel, completely out of focus ... 

yeah, thats not my screenshot.

That is a screenshot from someone else insisting it was proof AA was broken in XP11. (the actual problem ended up being HDCP related, but we didnt get to the bottom of that before some of the orgs most abusive admins had banned him)

As further demonstrated by the most recent actual AA "fix", AA issues were a symptom of broken cloud rendering, nothing actually todo with AA, I never saw that ever for the simple reason I do most of my flights in clear blue skies.

But sure, if screaming at the tide to stop coming in makes you feel better, Im not one to stand in your way... much.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

This photo scaled down who made it? 😊

16 minutes ago, mSparks said:

As further demonstrated by the most recent actual AA "fix", AA issues were a symptom of broken cloud rendering, nothing actually todo with AA, I never saw that ever for the simple reason I do most of my flights in clear blue skies.

If you fly without clouds and never see the AA bug that's not a good enough excuse to claim that XP12 has no AA bug.
The AA problems in XP12 are universally recognized by the whole community (even by the Laminar team) just like the problems of dark panels, poor VR performance, and other well-known problems that the Laminar team is desperate to fix.
In the latest patch they seem to have fixed the graphical issue with clouds in the background.
Well, that's a step forward, but we're still a long way from the AA technologies used by competing sims.

47 minutes ago, mSparks said:

But sure, if screaming at the tide to stop coming in makes you feel better, Im not one to stand in your way... much.

Actually it's you who's always yelling at the "fake XP12 antialiasing conspiracy". 😄
Whenever any user writes that he has encountered AA problems, you immediately intervene to affirm the opposite and argue with all your strength to affirm your thought which is that of "there are no AA bugs in Xp12".
I state that I like to discuss and I like discussions (the forums are for this).
But in addition to the discussions / opinions there are also some irrefutable truths, also ascertained by the developers.
The AA bug is not an opinion.
It's a truth.
It's a fact.
It's like saying "Australia exists".... but since i (Spark) have never seen it with my own eyes I go on the forums trying to convince everyone that Australia doesn't exist! 😳
I honestly don't understand this behavior.
Why are some of you fans wasting your time trying (in vain) to prove (in vain) that Australia doesn't exist?
What is the point of spreading this disinformation?
To nothing.
It would be much smarter to admit the existence of the problem and discuss with the other users any remedies that Laminars are studying to fix it. 👏
But as long as there is someone here who plays the role of "XP defender" every topic will end up in the cow because it will be impossible to discuss "Australia" as long as there is someone who claims that "Australia does not exist".

7 minutes ago, efis007 said:

that XP12 has no AA bug.

I have never made such a claim, quite the opposite in fact.

All I have said is that claiming "AA is broken" will not get wonky reflections/shadows on taxiway lines fixed. In the same way changing the AA slider wont fix an issue with HDCP that no one can see from the screenshot being posted no matter how much you insist its AA causing yellow jagged edges on the clouds.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

14 minutes ago, efis007 said:

This photo scaled down who made it? 😊

well, AA issues are more visible at lower resolutions, so if its truly the case that there is a persistent always present AA issue you should have absolutely no problem highlighting it.

Thats why I asked, cos I cant see what you are talking about.

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

@mSparks

Ok, but the shimmers and sparkles on the tracks-reflections-etc also depend on the AA malfunctioning.
In a video simulator the AA doesn't have to work just for some elements, it has to work well on all elements in the scene.
They have currently fixed an AA issue on clouds behind an object.
But the tracks and the rest of the scene are not fixed yet, there are many AA artifacts that prove that XP12's AA still performs poorly compared to competitors.
Let's hope the Laminars fix it.

2 hours ago, efis007 said:

AA malfunctioning

more likely PBR issues specific to the object shimmering that can only be fixed by identifying the object doing the shimmering and changing its PBR (or fixing any underlying issue with PBR).

Autogen roads fit into that category, I fixed them by hand myself. Many here wont complain about that because they use xroads to hide them completely and rely on orthophoto. But you wont be interested in that because you want the AA slider to fix it.

One thing I know for sure, is people are complaining about these things at 4K resolutions, which more or less 100% rules out anything todo with AA.

but fine, a screenshot wont do it

I did a video the other month

what timestamp has the issue or issues you are referring to?

I filed XPD-13902 that I noticed doing those flights, they just marked that as fixed in the latest beta (although I haven't had the opportunity to check it is actually fixed)

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by mSparks

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

One thing I know for sure, is people are complaining about these things at 4K resolutions, which more or less 100% rules out anything todo with AA.

Why do you think that? It's true, of course, that once we eventually have 16K screens, AA will become less and less important. The pixels will then be so small for us that we will no longer be able to recognize the individual pixels. But you always have to consider the screen size, resolution and distance to the screen. If I look at the XP on a 13" inch 4K screen and then still with 2 meters distance, clear then I will also tell you, no there shimmers nothing. The thing is what I'm getting at all the time, the technologies are there. Forza Horizon 5 and MSFS, for example, offer TAA and eliminate the shimmering. Both titles shimmers with MSAA just like the XP. That's the main point I'm trying to make. Therefore, it doesn't matter if PBR, textures or anything else cause problems. Please watch the video below.

And what is crucial is my following statement. I am not claiming that the XP12 still has a bug with MSAA, but that MSAA is no longer up to date, because there is just TAA and it eliminates the shimmering. As I said, the XP11 shimmers just the same, how I solved the problem, I have described. Only I do not have these possibilities in XP12.

I ask to consider the following video. It is crucial to watch this video in the native resolution of your own monitor. Here you can see exactly how well TAA eliminates shimmering and how MSAA also flickers in Forza Horizon. You see this very good when you watch the trees.

 

Edited April 5, 20233 yr by Skylon5000

17 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

You see this very good when you watch the trees.

So, the choice is sharp trees with some shimmering, or no shimmering but smudgy trees?  I'll take the small amount of shimmering.  I think this is one of the reasons the trees in MSFS look blurry to me, where the trees in XP12 look sharp.