12 hours ago, dmwalker said:

How seriously should we take this?

 

Fox is one of the more tolerable UFO investigators, although we still have to remember that they do this for a living. If this guy does eventually come forward and reveal's what he knows, we can consider its validity then, until that time, its just a claim. 

I try to live by reason, not faith. I don't have enough faith to imagine as true, a large agreement by government agencies to hide potentially beneficial alien technology from the public.

There's always bad actors in government. But the idea of a giant government coverup seems to me an idea which appeals mainly to true believers. Who believe something in their heart and then go and apply reasonable arguments in support of that heart's desire.

They should pause and think, wait a minute. Is this really sensible?

Sure astonishing things can be true. e.g. Einsteins theory, when it was new, about time. But experiments galore have established it. It's one of those 1 percent exceptions to the helpful rule of stopping to apply common sense.

"I am willing to take detailed lie detector tests", said none of the witnesses with the more surprising testimony. They are not on trial, and face no serious consequences of failing such a test.

 

 

1 hour ago, Fielder said:

They are not on trial, and face no serious consequences of failing such a test.

However, lying to Congress while under oath is a federal crime punishable by up to 5 years in jail, I believe but I could be wrong.

2 hours ago, Fielder said:

I try to live by reason, not faith. I don't have enough faith to imagine as true, a large agreement by government agencies to hide potentially beneficial alien technology from the public.

There's always bad actors in government. But the idea of a giant government coverup seems to me an idea which appeals mainly to true believers. Who believe something in their heart and then go and apply reasonable arguments in support of that heart's desire.

They should pause and think, wait a minute. Is this really sensible?

In the name of Reason, do some digging into how the US Government and defense contractors operate with respect to black budget projects and special access programs. 

The list of Senators and Congressmen (and women) who are read into any of it is quite short. Security oaths and non-disclosure agreements for anyone read-in or employed within the system are iron clad, and violations lead to extremely unpleasant consequences (jail, job loss, pension loss, permanent clearance loss) for anyone who releases classified information at any time. They can't even speak, or write a book without getting everything cleared through DOPSER first. 

If you're clever (or have had lots of practice over a very long time), things can be hidden from oversight. There are compartments within compartments. 

Giant cover up? Maybe not, but a long-standing one? It doesn't even appear to have worked that well. 

There is a long history of reputable (read: high ranking) government and military personnel who have attempted to blow the whistle, or made deathbed confessions over the last 70 years. You can even look up the CIA's decision to start ridiculing the UFO topic (to influence public opinion) after a certain series of exciting events in the skies over Washington DC in 1952. 

With a large enough pile of evidence (even if you just stick to declassified government documents) , reason leads to the idea that there is something going on, and someone, or some group has been working to keep it out of sight of the public (and likely the elected government as well). 

Also let's be honest, we live in interesting times. The conspiracy theorists are on their way to batting a thousand lately. /sarcasm (kinda). 

DB

5 hours ago, dmwalker said:

However, lying to Congress while under oath is a federal crime punishable by up to 5 years in jail, I believe but I could be wrong.

Good point. A valid reason not to take a lie detector test.

Let's assume those creatures found in Mexico are actually aliens. If that's true, then my best guess about their motive for the trip. Something along the line of semi crooked smugglers and traders much like and Chewbacca and Hans Solo. They made the great effort, on the sly, to make a buck buying things or selling stuff. Sort of under the table and without permission. And something went wrong.

I think the least likely would be that they came here with any altruistic purposes, or out a sense of exploration or adventure. They had to have monitored our broadcasts, seen what people watch on SKY and Netflix before deciding to make the trip. I doubt our broadcasts put Earth in a very good light.

If they were legitimate, and high minded, then they would advertised their arrival.

4 hours ago, Fielder said:

Let's assume those creatures found in Mexico are actually aliens. If that's true, then my best guess about their motive for the trip. Something along the line of semi crooked smugglers and traders much like and Chewbacca and Hans Solo. They made the great effort, on the sly, to make a buck buying things or selling stuff. Sort of under the table and without permission. And something went wrong.

I think the least likely would be that they came here with any altruistic purposes, or out a sense of exploration or adventure. They had to have monitored our broadcasts, seen what people watch on SKY and Netflix before deciding to make the trip. I doubt our broadcasts put Earth in a very good light.

If they were legitimate, and high minded, then they would advertised their arrival.

I would be very careful not to slap human traits and motivations onto a potential civilization and culture we have absolutely no information about. Zero. No background on how or when they evolved, their cultural norms and practices, how old the civilization is, what they value, like, dislike, motivations etc.

There are huge variations between human cultures on this planet that developed separately for only a couple thousand years. Misunderstandings are common, even among those that speak the same language.

There's a massive logical fallacy somewhere in there if we're thinking we have any chance of guessing the motivations of beings that did not evolve or develop with / alongside us, and could be thousands, millions or even billions of years more evolved (or "civilized"?) than we are.

It would be like a chimp in the jungle trying to figure out how the field scientists studying them are funded. 

 

If any of this is true, then to have any hope of understanding it, our perspective needs to shift away from the Earth-centric / human-centric view we've had up until this point. Earth, and the people on it are not the center of the universe, and it's not all about us.

That's not an easy thing to do on a whim. Quite humbling as well.

 

DB

I read other variations of similar ideas over a hundred years ago in 1920's magazines and newspapers. Contact with aliens is now imminent, thanks to radio. 1960's every child in school in America is taught how radio astronomy will allow us to read messages from space, soon. The exciting future first contact is always predicted. It never materializes. It used to be when booting a Play Station you were invited to leave it after finishing the game so that SETI could use the power of hundreds of thousands of consoles to examine space noise for intelligence. A large scale investigation yielded nothing. Discouraged, they shut the console linked program down.

As for these things from Mexico, I've seen more interesting and convincing looking specimens in features about P.T. Barnum's museum of the middle 1800's. For example, he featured Zip the Pinhead, a microcephalic man, who spoke a mysterious language. And embalmed bodies of small humanoid creatures.

True believers are going to believe. But I'm waiting for even remotely convincing physical evidence. If they exist and when they visit us, it would take them almost no time and effort to reveal themselves and interact. Until that happens, it does not seem to me an important matter. Which is why Congress has historically seldom bothered to spend time and money about it.

On 9/17/2023 at 5:27 PM, Fielder said:

True believers are going to believe. But I'm waiting for even remotely convincing physical evidence. If they exist and when they visit us, it would take them almost no time and effort to reveal themselves and interact. 

You're assuming they would want us to know they're here. 

If we (modern humans) decided to remotely observe / study an isolated tribe (on a remote island for example - North Sentinel Island comes to mind), we likely wouldn't leave any definitive evidence of our presence.

Would they even know they were being observed...and by whom? If they saw a small boat in the distance, or a Drone / UAV / High Altitude Aircraft in the sky, would they figure out what was going on? All they would have is (the equivalent of) witness testimony about something that made no sense.....and no physical evidence. 

If someone set foot on the island, they might leave footprints if they weren't careful, but those could easily be explained away.

All they would have is anecdotal evidence, and it would come down to "how reputable or believable are the people reporting?". The locals might even have a similar version of this discussion around a fire.

I won't comment on what the US Congress has done historically, other than to say I wouldn't use their previous actions as a basis for the validity of anything.

DB

Well yes, those are good points certainly.

I saw a website a couple years ago with ways the world might end. About 100 ways. All them have to do with science run amok. None of them have to do with religion or racism. Because religion or racism cannot possibly destroy the whole world. AI can. A lab virus can. Nano technology can. Nuclear weapons can, etc.
I hope to God any advanced civilization aliens that be, stay far far away from us with their advanced technology. Advancement of science and technology kills.

Everything. Eventually. So maybe my hoping the alien sightings aren't real is just wishful thinking on my part.

This is what J.R.R. Tolkien was telling us in his stories about the wonderful little isolated and simple shire. And the evil advanced cities threatening the whole world from afar.

 

13 hours ago, Fielder said:

Well yes, those are good points certainly.

I saw a website a couple years ago with ways the world might end. About 100 ways. All them have to do with science run amok. None of them have to do with religion or racism. Because religion or racism cannot possibly destroy the whole world. AI can. A lab virus can. Nano technology can. Nuclear weapons can, etc.
I hope to God any advanced civilization aliens that be, stay far far away from us with their advanced technology. Advancement of science and technology kills.

Everything. Eventually. So maybe my hoping the alien sightings aren't real is just wishful thinking on my part.

This is what J.R.R. Tolkien was telling us in his stories about the wonderful little isolated and simple shire. And the evil advanced cities threatening the whole world from afar.

 

I take a different (more hopeful?) approach to this.

When we talk about "advancement", we're almost always talking about technological advancement. However, Social, Cultural and Philosophical advancement are just as important, if not more important.

Here's an easy way to illustrate this point:

If we, as a species, had developed nuclear weapons at any point prior to 1945, we likely would have wiped ourselves out.

• Earlier in WWII, they would probably have been used in the European theatre, then likely North America and Pacific as part of the active conflict(s).
• During WWI, they would absolutely have been used in a widespread manner against civilian targets.
• In conflicts prior to WWI, used liberally to completely wipe your enemy off the map.

All of the above scenarios would likely end with most of the civilized world being wiped out.....nuclear winter etc.

But, it didn't happen (luckily), and along the way we, as a civilization, decided some things were off the table when it came to war. Treaties, Conventions and agreements were signed, and more attempts were made to resolve conflicts peacefully.

It's been (very) messy, but over time, we seem to be maturing as a civilization, and collectively coming to consensus about how we should conduct ourselves. We obviously have a long way to go, but since we've had the power to (really) destroy ourselves, we've also (just barely) had enough common sense to avoid doing it.

It's the idea of not letting a child play with matches. We are the child, but we're starting to grow up.

 

All this to say, you need to have means and intent. There needs to be someone willing to pull the trigger. Technology alone won't destroy the world, but combine it with (religious?) fanaticism and / or racism?....now you have the matches and the child.   <<This example covers malicious intent, but the same argument can be made for the wisdom and restraint required to not explore certain technological paths because the potential risks are too great....we have some lessons to learn there as well.

 

As it applies to "other" civilizations. I'm hopeful that a similar process happens "out there", where technological advances are accompanied by an increased sense of humility and responsibility....if by no other process than they either wipe themselves out, or burn their hands a little and decide to stop playing with matches going forward.

My uneducated guess is the resulting policy would be of non-interference, unless to preserve life on a wide scale, when encountering less-advanced civilizations.

Maybe that's not how it works, but we're still here aren't we?

EDIT: This is just one scenario, and an oversimplification that leans on luck and a positive outlook to explain the state of things. Evidence can be brought up to point to human history being much older and more complex than is currently understood, with different influences involved along the way. There are also other potential scenarios involving less-than-friendly ETs interacting with us, but still leaving the Earth spinning as-is. So maybe a bit naive, but we are still here after everything that's happened. Miracle, coincidence, or something else?

DB

Edited September 20, 20232 yr by DaviiB
Added some more context.

I just don't see it.

"All this to say, you need to have means and intent. There needs to be someone willing to pull the trigger."

Nobody intended for covid to get out of control. If it wasn't man made some of  the next ones that are unleashed will be. And not intentionally. When Stephen Hawking warns AI can end civilization, he was not referring to some evil intentions leading to disaster. So many advances in science. We hear about them every day how they are enriching our lives.

So 99 times we open our mailbox of news on the internet and television and read letters telling us of wonderful progress. An overwhelming number of times the advance of science has brought us good news. It only takes once when it brings the end of everything.

It's like a mailbox that has brought us news of winning the lottery, and inheriting a fortune. And then a letter arrives from the doctor saying incurable disease.

It used to be no country with atomic bombs threatened other nations explicitly out loud they they might very well use them soon. Today that is not so.

Disease and nuclear war are two of the at least hundred ways science can end the world.

There should have been countless intelligent civilizations that began eons before ours and now can travel faster than light. Some should have been here and communicating with us at least many centuries ago. The vastness of space notwithstanding. They are not here communicating with us for centuries. I read the evidence and come to conclusions.

33 minutes ago, Fielder said:

I just don't see it.

"All this to say, you need to have means and intent. There needs to be someone willing to pull the trigger."

Nobody intended for covid to get out of control. If it wasn't man made some of  the next ones that are unleashed will be. And not intentionally. When Stephen Hawking warns AI can end civilization, he was not referring to some evil intentions leading to disaster. So many advances in science. We hear about them every day how they are enriching our lives.

The intent doesn't need to be malicious, it could be people being naive and/or failing to properly consider the question of whether they should do it in their rush to create something. AI is a great example as there are plenty of companies rushing to develop it, but few people actually stopping to consider the impacts, including whether we as a society are ready for it. And the ones who do raise concerns tend to get ignored or drowned out by the next big AI announcement. Social media is another good example. It was supposed to bring the world together and break down barriers, but has been twisted and abused to sow division and distrust. Looking back, it should have been obvious that people would find ways to abuse it, and that perhaps we weren't ready for it as a society, but there was money to be made, so here we are. It still comes down to people in the end.

3 hours ago, DaviiB said:

It's been (very) messy, but over time, we seem to be maturing as a civilization, and collectively coming to consensus about how we should conduct ourselves

 

My thoughts too. I would hope that any civilization, hundreds or even thousands of years more advanced that us would have evolved beyond violence. If they hadn't then perhaps they would have self destructed long before developing the technology to reach the planet Earth. 

23 hours ago, Fielder said:

Nobody intended for covid to get out of control. If it wasn't man made some of  the next ones that are unleashed will be. And not intentionally. When Stephen Hawking warns AI can end civilization, he was not referring to some evil intentions leading to disaster. So many advances in science. We hear about them every day how they are enriching our lives.

That's why I said we still have some lessons to learn. With nuclear weapons we've (sorta) realized that we shouldn't use them (at least not the modern weapons....they're too big).

What we have yet to learn is when to stop ourselves from building something. i.e. Should we be doing this vs. can we do this?

We may be on the verge of learning one of those lessons with AI, or biological warfare research. I think there's a chance we get wiped out in the process (similar to the chance the first nuclear detonation would ignite the atmosphere), but the odds, to me, are far from overwhelming.

 

23 hours ago, Fielder said:

There should have been countless intelligent civilizations that began eons before ours and now can travel faster than light. Some should have been here and communicating with us at least many centuries ago. The vastness of space notwithstanding. They are not here communicating with us for centuries. I read the evidence and come to conclusions.

Well there is no open contact currently, but there is a lot of evidence that something is here (in modern times). They might even be communicating with someone or something, just not the general public. When we contact remote tribes, we don't send in a huge greeting party. We keep the groups small, and leave them alone for the most part, trying to avoid changing their culture / natural development. Extrapolate that to a planet-wide scale....what would be the odds of non-human craft filling our skies (under the previous scenario?).

As for historical contact.....If you step away from mainstream narratives and pay attention to the stories that are passed down in the oral traditions of native cultures all around the world, you'll find quite a bit of information suggesting that some kind of non-human intelligence was here, and interacting with those ancient people.

Note that these cultures are much older (sometimes by thousands of years) than the countries and modern cultures we identify with today. They just didn't record their information on the internet. All they had were oral traditions....which they took much more seriously than we would (because we have the internet today).

The only thing we don't have right now is publicly available, undeniable physical evidence. We do have mountains of other types of evidence though. i.e., an enormous amount of smoke and heat, but no visible fire yet.

DB

Edited September 21, 20232 yr by DaviiB