16 hours ago, dave2013 said:

That's so true, especially here in the USA where we've never been bombed or invaded(by a foreign military I mean). 

In addition to what Noel pointed out (revenge for burning down my hometown), there's a memorial in Honolulu you may want to visit.

Cheers

OK Noel and Luke:

Do you really want to compare 1)the War of !812, which happened over 200 years ago and didn't involve massive bombardment of cities and thousands of civilian deaths, or 2)the attack on Pearl Harbor which was not an invasion and, although awful, was limited to Japanese bombardment and torpedoing of American Naval vessels and not wholesale bombing of cities, to the massive bombardment of European cities and invasion by armed troops resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians during WW2?

Please.

If you can't understand what I was trying to say then I can't help you.

Dave

We're not trying to compare the weapons and destruction a century or more ago with what is possible today, Dave, but you brought up the Civil War.  And your statement included the word 'never' which I took to mean what it is defined to mean.  If you meant we haven't been invaded or bombed since WW2 then say that.  Although not exactly a bomb or an invasion the incident of the Twin Towers on 9/11 in which thousands were killed was most certainly an attack on the US mainland against the United States by a foreign enemy.

Noel

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

OK Noel and Luke:

Do you really want to compare 1)the War of !812, which happened over 200 years ago and didn't involve massive bombardment of cities and thousands of civilian deaths, or 2)the attack on Pearl Harbor which was not an invasion and, although awful, was limited to Japanese bombardment and torpedoing of American Naval vessels and not wholesale bombing of cities, to the massive bombardment of European cities and invasion by armed troops resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians during WW2?

Please.

If you can't understand what I was trying to say then I can't help you.

Dave

OK Dave...

The Japanese bombed and invaded the Aleutian Islands in June of 1942--they bombed the US naval base at Dutch Harbor, and subsequently captured/occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska for nearly a year before a joint US-Canadian task force pushed them back off the islands in the spring-summer of 1943.  It was no cakewalk--there were over 2,000 American KIA/MIA, 3,400 wounded, three ships, and 225 aircraft lost there, and the Japanese lost 4,350 men and 16 ships.

Because of the larger and more strategically important concurrent naval battles at Coral Sea and Midway in 1942, the Aleutian campaign was/is referred to by historians as "the Forgotten Battle."

But make no mistake--the US homeland has indeed been bombed and has lost thousands in a foreign wartime invasion.

 

4 hours ago, Bob Scott said:

But make no mistake--the US homeland has indeed been bombed and has lost thousands in a foreign wartime invasion.

I was replying to this statement: "Its been so long now since major death and destruction was visited on developed western countries ".

I assumed that to mean "so long since most of Europe was bombed into oblivion, and countries invaded and occupied during WW2".

Nothing anywhere close to that scale of destruction and violence has ever happened in The United States since the Civil War.

One can nitpick and mention 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Aleutian Campaign, etc., but these pale in comparison with what happened in Europe during WW2.

The average American has absolutely no idea what it would mean if we were to go to war with a major power, which would likely retaliate and bomb American cities.  The wars we have fought since WW2 were against pipsqueak countries with nowhere near the military might of the United States.

Dave

Well, Dave, I'm not arguing against what you meant to say, but what you actually said about the US never having been bombed or invaded by a foreign military.  Those 2,000 brave souls that died fighting the Japanese in the Aleutians deserve our "nit-picking" recognition of the fact that their sacrifices successfully prevented a much more significant Japanese attack on the US homeland.

And as to only fighting "pipsqueaks" post-WW II (how arrogantly ignorant that statement is)...40,000+ KIA/MIA and 115,000+ wounded US and UN troops, 217,000+ KIA/MIA and 429,000+ wounded South Korean troops, and over a million civilian South Koreans killed by North Korea backed by China.  "Pipsqueaks", you say...really??!  And then there's nearly 60,000 KIA/MIA and 153,000+ wounded Americans, 254,000+ KIA/MIA and 1.17 million South Vietnamese wounded by "pipsqueak" North Vietnam backed by China and the Soviet Union.

The fact that we've prevented a major war from being fought on American soil for over a century and a half does not mean that Americans are so far removed from the sacrifices of war that they do not or cannot grasp its gravity and loss.  The loss of over a hundred thousand Americans in war since WW II has not gone unnoticed.

15 hours ago, Bob Scott said:

40,000+ KIA/MIA and 115,000+ wounded US and UN troops, 217,000+ KIA/MIA and 429,000+ wounded South Korean troops, and over a million civilian South Koreans killed by North Korea backed by China.  "Pipsqueaks", you say...really??!  And then there's nearly 60,000 KIA/MIA and 153,000+ wounded Americans, 254,000+ KIA/MIA and 1.17 million South Vietnamese wounded by "pipsqueak" North Vietnam backed by China and the Soviet Union.

You're making an emotional argument based solely on numbers of killed and wounded.  A country could fight a long war with a much smaller and militarily weaker country and still lose many thousands of soldiers, similar to the Vietnam War which turned out to be a huge mistake and grand debacle - somewhat predictable considering that we were trying to project our power 8,000 miles from home against a determined enemy on their own turf backed by China and the USSR.  Anyway, you'd think we'd learn from these mistakes but we never do.  I pray that we don't repeat this mistake vis-a-vis China and Taiwan.  The defeat would be humiliating and debilitating for the U.S.

Anyhow, I'll repeat my point that Americans have no idea what a war with a *major* military power like China or Russia would entail.  We haven't fought a war like this since WW2.  The U.S. can barely produce enough weapons to replenish its depleted stockpiles consumed in a limited conflict in Ukraine, so forget about making enough to fight a major war.  Yes, with enough time and money production could be scaled up, but we are in no shape to be threatening anyone right now.  Putting aside nuclear weapons for a moment, just a conventional war with either one of the major military and economic powers would devastate not only them, but the USA as well.  Americans at home would be directly impacted by the war, no longer able to simply watch it play out on TV from the comfort of their living rooms totally unaffected, and when ballistic missiles start hitting American cities and towns, and when the shortages and rationing begin, only then would the average person realize what a monumental error we have made.

BTW, I'm a veteran myself and honor the sacrifices our soldiers, sailors and airmen have made in this country's history, despite the fact that I disagreed with our involvement in some of the conflicts.  You're subtle attempt to make me seem unpatriotic or word not allowed has failed.

Many folks are biased by a glorious past or golden age that they grew up in, and can't imagine their nation ever being defeated.  This is a dangerous and naive attitude.  Just ask the ancient Romans how proud and arrogant they felt when they were overrun by invaders and Rome was sacked by Vandals in the later empire, or the British, whose powerful empire crumbled before their eyes in the 1930s and 40s while their cities were being bombed.

Dave

 

Edited January 28, 20242 yr by dave2013