Was FSX Dumbed Down?

[Skyseek 18]

I am flying two aircraft that are still a work in progress.

In one case the AC (PC-12) on the take off roll starts to skid or slide at speeds above 80 knots. I posted on their discord site, and a person flys that AC in real life and says that is the actual characteristic of the AC?? This AC also has coordinated yoke rudder, turning the yoke engages the rudder. This is a strange design to me. 
 

I don’t remember this AC having that characteristic in FSX or XPlane for that matter.  My question is do you think FSX in general was dumbed down as far as actual flight characteristics?  FSX in easy mode?

I have a private pilots license, personally I wouldn’t fly an aircraft that starts to skid at above 80 knots. Even though you could rotate at 80 knots to avoid it. 
 

Just an observation…

 

[polosim 852]

As real as it gets.

I think it's the best way to describe it. The user ask for realism and good developers try to simulate it within the limitations of MSFS or your favorite simulator.

Edited February 4 by polosim

[sd_flyer 6,062]

You are  probably talking about SWS PC-12. They do have a  problem with yaw, and they have acknowledged that. I do not have problem  skidding while taking off 80 kts or higher I do however have problem with directional control after during approach and after landing . Just like you say it work in progress. 

Since you mentioned you have pilot certificate you should be aware capabilities and potential of FSX and MSFS sim to simulate actual flight

[JYW 2,985]

Firstly, in mine and many other people's opinion (not everyone as you can see above), the SWS PC-12 is "just not right yet™", in terms of it's flying characteristics.  So you're not alone in your frustration on that.

However, it's not MSFS that is causing the problems with that aircraft (and a handful of others), by being 'dumbed down'.

If you want to see just how realistically an aircraft can perform in MSFS, try the A2A Comanche. 

I don't think MSFS is 'dumbed down', I think it's just not quite there yet.  (And it probably never will be in some areas now that FS2024 has been announced) ...... but at least FS2024 provides us with a continuity path for improvement.

It's not just flight dynamics.  Remember how easily you could change your aircraft and many other parameters, during a flight session, in FSX?     In MSFS, you need to end your flight sessions and go back to the main menu and configure a new flight from scratch, to make these changes.

[UrgentSiesta 936]

No - it was as good as the technology allowed for at the time. FSX seems to have been released around 2006 - that's a LOOOOOONNNNNG time ago. "Centuries" in terms of computers & software development....

For reference, the original iPhone wasn't even released until 2007(!). And think how far mobile computing has come since then.

There have always been developers who recognize the inherent limitations of general purpose sims and endeavor to make their addons more realistic than the baseline the sim can provide. A2A Simulations is one such (perhaps "The Best"?). There AccuSim ultra-realism tech has been in action since FSX.

There are others, such as SimCoders in X-Plane.

What we have today is light years beyond FSX in terms of base & extended realism.

However, what you're describing with the SWS PC-12 sounds a LOT more like a problem with an Early Access addon than it does like "enhanced realism".

Or possibly your control settings are messed up, or the coordinated yoke-rudder is a "feature" to make it easier to fly for simmers with no rudder pedals.

I'd check for updates from SWS, turn off ALL assists in your control setup (sim & aircraft), and give it another shot.

 

[MattNischan 3,783]

4 hours ago, Skyseek said:

This AC also has coordinated yoke rudder, turning the yoke engages the rudder. This is a strange design to me. 

This is how the real PC-12 is, as well. The aircraft automatically has a bit of rudder cross-control with ailerons, to make turns more coordinated without extra pilot input.

4 hours ago, Skyseek said:

I don’t remember this AC having that characteristic in FSX or XPlane for that matter.  My question is do you think FSX in general was dumbed down as far as actual flight characteristics?

I don't think this has anything to do with the realism on either platform (although the MSFS flight model is light years ahead of the FSX one). Rudder and aileron cross connect is a developer choice: it requires custom code to drive the sim to do that on any of the platforms. So it's possible no previous developer decided to implement that feature of the real plane (or perhaps were unaware of it).

Edited February 4 by MattNischan

[polosim 852]

7 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

ike a problem with an Early Access addon than it does like "enhanced realism".

Or possibly your control settings are messed up, or the coordinated yoke-rudder is a "feature" to make it easier to fly for simmers with no rudder pedals.

It's not a problem, not a feature to make it easier to for "simmers" or a control messed up.

Q: What’s up with my ailerons and rudder?
A: They are interconnected, that’s how the aircraft is supposed to be. Read the manual.

The aileron and rudder controls are mechanically linked with an interconnect system, whereby when the yoke is turned, rudder pedals also follow in the same direction and vice versa. The purpose of the system is to assist turn coordination and reduce adverse-yaw. The aileron-rudder relationship is 1:1 up to 25kts. After that point, the ratio of the interconnect begins to reduce and is very subtle above 150 knots. As it is not possible to feel the control forces on a desktop controller, you will need to cross-control with your desktop controls. As you apply aileron control in one direction, the aircraft’s pedals will follow suit in order to better co- ordinate the turn. If you want to stop it, you would need to apply opposite rudder pressure in order to keep them centered.

 

 

 

[Skyseek 18]

Thanks for the responses.

[lwt1971 7,425]

4 hours ago, MattNischan said:

I don't think this has anything to do with the realism on either platform (although the MSFS flight model is light years ahead of the FSX one). Rudder and aileron cross connect is a developer choice: it requires custom code to drive the sim to do that on any of the platforms. So it's possible no previous developer decided to implement that feature of the real plane (or perhaps were unaware of it).

You probably can't say anything Matt, but any tidbits you can reveal about the MSFS 2024 flight model? 😀
 

Edited February 4 by lwt1971

[JYW 2,985]

4 hours ago, polosim said:

It's not a problem, not a feature to make it easier to for "simmers" or a control messed up.

Q: What’s up with my ailerons and rudder?
A: They are interconnected, that’s how the aircraft is supposed to be. Read the manual.

The aileron and rudder controls are mechanically linked with an interconnect system, whereby when the yoke is turned, rudder pedals also follow in the same direction and vice versa. The purpose of the system is to assist turn coordination and reduce adverse-yaw. The aileron-rudder relationship is 1:1 up to 25kts. After that point, the ratio of the interconnect begins to reduce and is very subtle above 150 knots. As it is not possible to feel the control forces on a desktop controller, you will need to cross-control with your desktop controls. As you apply aileron control in one direction, the aircraft’s pedals will follow suit in order to better co- ordinate the turn. If you want to stop it, you would need to apply opposite rudder pressure in order to keep them centered.

This has been brought up so many times.

The issues that myself and many other people, both here, on the Discord and elsewhere are nothing to do with the aileron-rudder interconnect.   They are issues concerning low speed, high lift (flaps) yaw stability in flight.  (In other words typically on approach). SWS have acknowledged they are working to improve this.

But please, don't tell us that this aircraft flies appropriately to the real PC-12 and that we're just not getting it.  Because that is just not true.   There are issues with the SWS PC-12's flight dynamics in yaw.  Period.

[UrgentSiesta 936]

4 hours ago, polosim said:

It's not a problem, not a feature to make it easier to for "simmers" or a control messed up.

Q: What’s up with my ailerons and rudder?
A: They are interconnected, that’s how the aircraft is supposed to be. Read the manual.

The aileron and rudder controls are mechanically linked with an interconnect system, whereby when the yoke is turned, rudder pedals also follow in the same direction and vice versa. The purpose of the system is to assist turn coordination and reduce adverse-yaw. The aileron-rudder relationship is 1:1 up to 25kts. After that point, the ratio of the interconnect begins to reduce and is very subtle above 150 knots. As it is not possible to feel the control forces on a desktop controller, you will need to cross-control with your desktop controls. As you apply aileron control in one direction, the aircraft’s pedals will follow suit in order to better co- ordinate the turn. If you want to stop it, you would need to apply opposite rudder pressure in order to keep them centered.

 

22 minutes ago, JYW said:

This has been brought up so many times.

The issues that myself and many other people, both here, on the Discord and elsewhere are nothing to do with the aileron-rudder interconnect.   They are issues concerning low speed, high lift (flaps) yaw stability in flight.  (In other words typically on approach). SWS have acknowledged they are working to improve this.

But please, don't tell us that this aircraft flies appropriately to the real PC-12 and that we're just not getting it.  Because that is just not true.   There are issues with the SWS PC-12's flight dynamics in yaw.  Period.

Good to see both the devs and affected end-users sharing perspective.

Though I'm very interested in the PC-12, i'm just not in the market right now. Will be interesting to see how this plays out - hopefully everyone's happy (for once! 😉 )

[Tom_L 541]

16 hours ago, JYW said:

But please, don't tell us that this aircraft flies appropriately to the real PC-12 and that we're just not getting it.  Because that is just not true. There are issues with the SWS PC-12's flight dynamics in yaw.  Period.

Youtuber landing in "brutal" , "wicked, wicked" crosswind 🤣

 

[F737MAX 5,659]

19 minutes ago, Tom_L said:

Youtuber landing in "brutal" , "wicked, wicked" crosswind 🤣

Never performed a 'crosswind' landing where I had to crab 20° out of the wind direction, especially not when it was, in fact, almost a perfect headwind.

Look at the wind arrow on the HSI:
https://youtu.be/WxX_tWEAc4A?feature=shared&t=3405

[ha5mvo 256]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:41 PM, MattNischan said:

although the MSFS flight model is light years ahead of the FSX one

I guess that's why Fenix are still struggling with it, PMDG had been quite open with their frustration and A2A defenestrated it altogether. Those are the top dogs in the industry.

I suppose it's ok for those who are fine with something generic. If you're aiming higher then the platform should provide with something more flexible and persistent. The same applies, by the way, to the weather engine.

[lwt1971 7,425]

2 hours ago, ha5mvo said:

I guess that's why Fenix are still struggling with it, PMDG had been quite open with their frustration and A2A defenestrated it altogether. Those are the top dogs in the industry.

I suppose it's ok for those who are fine with something generic. If you're aiming higher then the platform should provide with something more flexible and persistent. The same applies, by the way, to the weather engine.

Repeating talking points ad nauseam doesn't make them any truer unfortunately. Care to tell us how exactly Fenix are "struggling" with the MSFS FDE? Oh wait, let's actually hear from Fenix's lead Aamir on this flight model topic and also A2A's custom one: 

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/636158-accusim-2-level-of-flight-dynamics-in-msfs-2024/?do=findComment&comment=4990988
"This thread is hilarious. People complaining about a £59.99 piece of home entertainment software (MSFS) not having incredible globalised flight modelling when even £30m+ level-D sims, specific to type, built from real aircraft test data, don't feel like the real thing. 
A2A had to go external in places to build it to their standards, which is understandable, because they're brilliant and build a brilliant product. What I don't get is people taking that and spinning it into "Asobo sucks!", yeesh. We had to go external on our engines and a portion of our flight model too, in this next update. It doesn't mean Asobo sucks. It means we, as developers, have specific needs and requirements from our product that we want to see - and that we can go build it ourselves. I don't think anyone railing on Asobo understands what a monumental task it is to have an FDE that is just bang on perfect for every single type of aircraft out there - including helicopters, gliders, etc, out of the box by default, and globalised. Insanity. 
p.s if anyone manages to do the above, perfect globalised modelling, and it's capable of running on anything less than a super-computer in real time, you're probably sat on a few billion dollars in training contracts - forget the piddly consumer market 🙂"

Fenix are still working on their enhancements update given they are doing custom engine work and the various other bits Aamir has already outlined. And sounds to me like he doesn't find the platform inflexible and not at all like they are "struggling".  And ya in the modern age of software, the platform evolves faster as opposed to fixpacks with years between as legacy sims did.. all the major devs (which means almost all of them out there who're developing mainly or exclusively for MSFS) are quite fine with the platform evolution SU to SU 🤷‍♂️ (except maybe for one or two legacy devs who work at glacial pace)

PMDG have been open about their struggles with a particular issue in network communications in the WASM framework given their intention to use C++ code and release for both PC and XBox. That was not about the FDE/flight-model in MSFS. The 737 in MSFS clearly has a better FM compared to the FSX/P3D versions, as will I'm sure the 777.

And yes A2A, like they've always done previously with P3D use their external and heavily customized AccuSim framework, ported updated/re-written/enhanced much more for MSFS to use to build their new birds for the platform (no surprise). Such is the amount of choices a dev has, as Aamir says above.

There are other "top dogs" in the industry like iniBuilds, Milviz, FSReborn, SWS, JustFlight, etc etc all using the MSFS core FDE. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how the MSFS FDE is indeed light years ahead of the FSX/P3D as Matt says above. iniBuilds have gone out of their way to laud the MSFS FDE and especially its CFD tech to help with their FMs, and rate it on par to the sim platform they were developing for before.

The one area of the MSFS FDE known for issues and in need of improvement is ground handling, and that is being reworked in MSFS 2024 with a backport coming soon to MSFS 2020.
 

Edited February 5 by lwt1971