Stunning!

But 96% of the worlds hydrogen comes from coal. And we don't have anything like the infrastructure in place for a multitude of stations with cryogenically cooled hydrogen. (Currently 60 in the whole of the US)

I'm thinking cars with fuel cells will be like Betamax. Beaten by VHS. 

Who knows though, if we can manufacture more green hydrogen and build sufficient infrastructure, perhaps hydrogen hyper cars will be an option for some wealthy people. 

 

https://www.hyperion.inc/xp1-car

2,038 Horsepower

0-60 in 2.25 seconds.

Top Speed 221 MPH.

 

Sounds awesome! Like a space ship. 😁

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 20241 yr by martin-w

I've always thought that hydrogen fuel cells would be a better option than electric batteries, but I think electric batteries are "easier" technology and as a result is more ready for prime-time than are hydrogen fuel cells.  

By "better" option I mean the environmental cost and sustainability of making batteries (rare earth elements etc.) and MOST importantly waste/recycling of batteries.   Whereas the environmental cost of hydrogen fuel cells would be the cost of creating the hydrogen, which would in many places likely consist of fossil fuel burning, so that's bad too.  If you have any insight into this comparison I'd like to hear it, because my information may be lacking.

The big payoff is that the waste of burning hydrogen is WATER.  The hydrogen fuel cell technology could be amazing and I think overall a net lower environmental footprint than electric batteries.

17 hours ago, Mace said:

I've always thought that hydrogen fuel cells would be a better option than electric batteries, but I think electric batteries are "easier" technology and as a result is more ready for prime-time than are hydrogen fuel cells. 

 

Yes, there just isn't the infrastructure for a significant number of hydrogen cars. There would have to be a massive increase in green hydrogen production instead of the 96% from fossil fuels, thousands  of filling stations would be required, all with high tech facilities to store cryogenically cooled hydrogen, safely. Not to mention fleets of tankers transporting hydrogen to filling stations. then we have the added complexity of hydrogen power trains with fuel cells that require expensive platinum catalysts. 

60 hydrogen filling stations in the US compared with 65,000 EV chargers, currently. About 265 in Europe compared with 633,000 EV chargers in Europe in 2023, and even more by now. And of course, most BEV's charge at home while you sleep, so most of the time no need to use a charging station. BEV's are lightyears ahead of hydrogen, currently. 

I think hydrogen has its place, though. Large vehicles, ships, tankers, just not the cars you and me drive. There's an experimental ship, currently, that extracts hydrogen from sea water to power its fuel cells.

 

 

https://www.enerdynamics.com/Energy-Currents_Blog/Meet-the-Energy-Observer-the-Worlds-First-Hydrogen-powered-Boat-and-Trailblazing-Energy-Laboratory.aspx;

 

Quote

The boat is powered solely with three primary renewable energy sources – solar, wind, and hydropower. Due to the intermittency of renewable power, storage is provided by lithium-ion batteries and hydrogen tanks. When all the renewable energy is not needed for propulsion or other uses, the excess is used to charge batteries or make hydrogen from sea water using the excess energy to power hydrolysis. The hydrogen is later used as needed to generate electricity using fuel cells.

 

What we're doing at the moment on the supply side is to develop thousands of wind and solar electricity generation sites which are small relative to the huge coal, oil or gas power stations they replace.  That will require a big expansion of the distribution network.  On the demand side, we're developing a network of charging points for electric cars.  That's far from adequate yet and will require another huge expansion of the distribution network at that end of the process.

One of the leading motorway service station operators said recently that to power sufficient charging points for one of their sites, they would need additional supply equivalent to one third of the entire power consumption of the nearby city of 150,000 people.  That's a big task nationwide.

In doing so, we're changing the current systems where we bring the energy to the cars, which have to full up relatively infrequently, to one where the cars have to go to the energy relatively frequently.  Here in the UK, 20% of the housing stock was built before 1919 and another 20% before 1946.  This is typically in conurbations where construction work is difficult.  Much of this housing does not have off-road parking as ownership of cars was not widespread at that time and therefore charging at home is not a realistic option.  

Bearing in mind the cost of the transmission network, and the limitations to charging at home, surely it would make more sense to produce green hydrogen using zero-carbon electricity close to where that electricity is generated and then deliver the hydrogen to the existing filling stations we use now? 

 

We all know we need to move a zero carbon society,  We do need a joined-up plan to get there though. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited July 11, 20241 yr by ailchim

The National Grid aren't concerned.

 

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars

https://octopusev.com/ev-hub/can-the-grid-cope-with-electric-cars

Using petrol stations for hydrogen is an interesting idea. But of course, it's only the land that's available. A petrol station with a big tank beneath isn't the same as an underground cryogenically cooled chamber for storing liquid hydrogen. All the pumps would need replacing too, and would need to be cooled hydrogen units of much more complexity than a simple petrol pump. There would need to be fleets of cryogenically cooled, sophisticated, custom built road  tankers, too. Then we have the danger hydrogen poses... not to mention its a low efficiency fuel.

 

 

Edited July 11, 20241 yr by martin-w

 

I take everything Musk says now with a very large and healthy dose of Sea Salt... 😉

15 hours ago, n4gix said:

I take everything Musk says now with a very large and healthy dose of Sea Salt... 😉

 

In this case he is right. So is Sabine Hossenfelder. And I'm impressed that I spelt Hossenfelder correctly. 😮 😃

Edited July 12, 20241 yr by martin-w

On 7/10/2024 at 12:19 PM, martin-w said:

Stunning!

But 96% of the worlds hydrogen comes from coal. And we don't have anything like the infrastructure in place for a multitude of stations with cryogenically cooled hydrogen. (Currently 60 in the whole of the US)

I'm thinking cars with fuel cells will be like Betamax. Beaten by VHS. 

Who knows though, if we can manufacture more green hydrogen and build sufficient infrastructure, perhaps hydrogen hyper cars will be an option for some wealthy people. 

 

Wow, that car really lives up to the “space-age” name! The design looks like something straight out of a sci-fi movie — smooth, aerodynamic lines and a futuristic stance that make it stand out from anything else on the road. It’s amazing how some concepts manage to blend advanced engineering with art. You can almost imagine it hovering instead of rolling on wheels

Looks a bit like a Veyron, or Chiron. 

On 7/10/2024 at 12:19 PM, martin-w said:

2,038 Horsepower

0-60 in 2.25 seconds.

Top Speed 221 MPH.

Honestly, I am at a point in life where I don't want a car with those specs.  

Edited October 9, 2025Oct 9 by stans

Its an old thread from 2024. Me neither, its hydrogen. 😁