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FS11 - Will the scenery engine improve?

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you can't run it with everything maxed out because it was designed like that, period.It was designed so that people who buy the product and later upgrade their computers will be able to see the benefit of that upgrade in higher detailed scenery (among other things).That's been the case with every single FS version where you can change settings, and is unlikely to ever change.P.S. with your machine specs you should never have expected to run everything maxed out in the first place, probably not even with FS2004, and get decent results.It's underpowered by today's standards, midrange by the standards of 2 years ago.

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Guest sfgiants

Thanks for your reply but for the life of me, I can't find a response to my question that I proposed. Maybe you posted on the wrong thread.My question was about FS11 not my PC Specs or what FSX wasn't suppose to be.Tim

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None of us know what MS has in store for FS11. Seeing how it is still early in the development cycle, I doubt they know. That being said, as jwenting said, MS has a history of pushing the hardware with each new version of MSFS. By that I mean, the software is always designed for the future. For a PC that hasn't been yet built.If we extend this logic and, using past experiences with new versions of MSFS, we can assume that FS11 will suck right out of the box, just like every other version. Although, it may have a new graphics engine?So the answer to your question is, NO! FS11 won't run any faster when released than FS10, FS9, FS8... did when they were released, regardless what MS does with the graphics engine. However, two years later it will be awesome.

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Actually I would not expect even ACES to have signed on to whether the Scenery/Terrain engine is updated or not, well not yet anyway.One would expect that the graphics engine would receive a serious tweak, but there is IMHO some difference between that and the "Scenery/Terrain" engine. I would expect some tweaking regardless of the outcome/deliberations, to take advantage of new hardware capabilities available in a year's time at a very minimum.As to running with sliders full right, there I have to agree with Jerome and the others. I do not believe you will ever see this on initial release of any version of MSFS.Cheers,Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

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Guest UlfB

>>My question was about FS11 not my PC Specs or what FSX wasn't>suppose to be.>This is the FSX forum ;-)Ulf BComputer, mouse, monitor.

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Guest cbuchner1

I would imagine they are seriously looking into vertex shader approaches to terrain detail, as well as per-pixel displacement mapping. So you can get more elevation detail without increasing the number of vertices and triangles. The elevation detail could instead be stored in textures. It is basically a glorified bump mapping technique, except that it doesn't just affect lighting, but it truly affects geometry.Here is an overview of terrain technologies and you will find some papers have authors from Microsoft Research (Hoppe):http://www.vterrain.org/LOD/Papers/index.htmlFor designing a new terrain engine, I'd put my bets on GPU based clipmaps right now.Microsoft is already on top of this techology, a tech demo is available here:http://research.microsoft.com/research/dow...e1/Details.aspxChristian

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Guest

>Thanks for your reply but for the life of me, I can't find a>response to my question that I proposed. Maybe you posted on>the wrong thread.>>My question was about FS11 not my PC Specs or what FSX wasn't>suppose to be.>>Timread again... You're suggesting that FSX is fundamentally flawed because you can't run it with all the sliders maxed out and its replacement should be "fixed".I explained why it's not flawed at all (in that regard, it's not perfect) and therefore you're not going to get your wish in FS11 (let's call it that for now) because there's nothing to "fix" except your expectations which ARE flawed but there's nothing Microsoft can do to change that.

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>you can't run it with everything maxed out because it was>designed like that, period.>>It was designed so that people who buy the product and later>upgrade their computers will be able to see the benefit of>that upgrade in higher detailed scenery (among other things).>That goal was certainly met.:) But, I do not understand a design philosophy of software resources outdistancing hardware by years. In fact I don't believe it is that cut and dry. I have managed many small and large capital projects and rarely did the "as built" exactly match the original design. Along the way, problems were solved, new ones found and modifications created. It is never a straight line from goals to project completion and that squiggly progress is generally the largest contributor of bugs and performance issues. Bob..

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Historically flightsim has always outdistanced the hardware by quite a bit starting with fs1.What changed in the 90's was the introduction of sliders-which fuiii was the first sim to introduce. (Up till then you just took the sim the way it was- it never ran well on a new rig-and you just accepted that). Fuiii being very imaginative in many areas tried adding sliders so the end user could customize what was important to the user-and the new ability to actually achieve good performance on a present machine by careful adjustment of these sliders which was unheard of at that time.Of course with fuiii-instead of accepting where the sliders went for defaults or customizing them for good performance-everyone including me dragged them all to the max to see what was possible-then faced poor performance.Once seeing what was possible maxed, no one wanted to drag them back. The complaining about performance started-and fuiii went under directly as a result. The original idea of what sliders did was somehow lost in the process-but the other sims copied the technology (a mistake perhaps?).I suppose fs11 could come out ready to work with sliders maxed right out of the box. But then it would probably look like fs9-as that is presently what would work today with the sliders all maxed on todays hardware! Would most simmers be more satisfied with that? I know I would not, but if I were MS I sure would be looking at this as an option. http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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Don't know if they will change the engine but reading the ACES team blogs I get the impression there are a lot of changes in personel at the moment (lots of guys moving on). Who knows? new programmers, fresh idea's, new insights. Lets hope that FS11 wil be less controversial then good old FS-X

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Guest

fresh people, loss of experience, temporary loss of productivity.EVERY FS version has been "controversial" for one reason or another, the crowd of complainers and whiners is always there, always about the same size as a fraction of the total user community.

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Guest Zevious Zoquis

I just got a new PC a month ago. It's a Dell with an AMD X2 64 5600+ at 2.8 ghz. It's got an ATI HD2600 XT vid card with 256 megs on it. I don't have FSX and don't plan on getting it anytime soon (and doubt it would run all that great on the new machine if I did) but I'm loving FS9 all over again. It's a special sort of joy being able to turn the sliders up nice and high, flying around in all sorts of detailed add-on planes and scenery with lots of autogen and locking the framerate at 33fps and having it STAY there the whole time. Having said that, there are still circumstances under which the frames drop a tad (and I still don't have the sliders completely maxed - close though). The issue here isn't that theres something wrong with FS9. The problem is with human psychology. When we fire up the sim and see those sliders sitting at a third or half the way to the right we immediately think "if I don't have those sliders pushed all the way over, I'm not experiencing this sim the way it's meant to be experienced." The fact of the matter though is this: when I was flying FS9 on my previous P4 1.8 ghz system, I'd say I was running it with the sliders at about 60%. In other words, I had scenery density at "DENSE", autogen at "Normal", a bit of fsaa and aniso @ 1152x864x32 res, etc etc. I got good performance - usually 20-24 fps, sometimes dropping down to the low teens in dense clouds or really dense scenery but mostly 20 and up. If I'd have gone back and re-installed FS2002, I could probably have maxed it out and gotten similar or maybe even slightly better framerates, but it wouldn't have looked much (if any) better at all than FS9 @ 60%. I'm sure the same applies to FSX compared with FS9. I'd imagine FSX at 50-60% slider settings looks as good as or better than FS9 maxed out. I think that 50-60% slider zone is what the sim is designed for and anything "further to the right" is the icing on the cake. Look at it this way - if MS wanted to end all these complaints about how inneficient the engine is all they'd have to do really is make the sliders full right setting equal what is currently the 50 or 60% level. who'd be the wiser? Would that make you feel any better? (that question is directed at the OP btw)

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Guest Zelensta

Flight Simulator releases every 2 years... 1998,2000,2002,2004,2006...2008!!!!Thats means we're getting a NEW ONE THAT NO BODY WILL BE ABLE TO PLAY THIS YEAR!!!! (unless you have 10,000 dream machine that you buy this year, anything else would be antique for flight sim)

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FS2000 was released in late 1999FS2002 was released in late 2001FS2004 was released in mid to late 2003FSX was released in late 2006FS11 probabily won't be released until late 2009.RH

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Guest baksteen33

But certain sliders just have to be maxxed, for example Global Texture Quality. Less is 'not amusing'. For this (and of course depending on the resolution and AA/AF settings), IMHO, it's advised to have more than 256MB of beef on the GPU... Just like 2GB risks to become too little as well for FSX and OS. OTOH, 256MB and 2GB is a good combination because the GPU doesn't take up too much system memory. Consequently, a 512MB GPU and FSX would be better with more than 2GB system RAM IMHO. And so on... Personally, I think there's a huge misperception towards FSX's RAM requirements. Particularly with Windows Vista. Please note, I'm referring to denser environments with loads of AI, animations etc, not somewhere in the bush, with mucho aqua and with 10 AI movements including ships. :-) Kind regards Jaap

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Guest Zevious Zoquis

Yeah, but for me, the things that have always had the most adverse effect on performance have been scenery density, clouds, autogen and AI. I was pretty much always able to max out the texture settings in FS9 and dropping them didn't seem to improve performance much at all. In fact, lower texture settings seemed to worsen performance in the sense that it seemed to introduce microstutters for some reason...

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Guest fsxmissionguy

Reading tea leaves, I'd say we're in for quite a jump in low altitude resolution. I think it's probably common knowledge that the TS2 implementation is going to be based, and probably extend, the FSX scenery engine ... those improvements eventually trickling up into vNext.Here's what some of the current renders look like (and these renders seem to me to be demonstrate an improvement in graphic detail at low altitude).Hard to tell if these were screenshots taken ingame, but sure looks like it. Are those tree branches, I see?http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/184698.jpg

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Guest jshyluk

To the original poster:This was a hot topic at the AVSIM FanCon! We did have some of the ACES team on hand to try to answer your question.Firstly, I agree here with ZZ, in that there's a psychology to the sliders that I think caught Microsoft off-guard. Too many choices will tend to either "paralyze" the average user, or else give them a false sense of what needs to be done. Think about what it's like to fill out your tax forms, and you get an idea of what "too many choices" feels like.I am guessing that TrainSim will re-vamp the slider system. They pretty much will have to. Either the sliders available to the average user will be simplified (and then the advanced user will have to look to the game code for the tweaks), or else there would be a better Wizard system that would show off some kind of What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get slider arrangement (that's what I would like to see!).No matter what, the technology gained and the mistakes learned from in FSX and the new Train Sim should provide clear lessons on how to design FS11. Obviously, one big difference between TrainSim and FlightSim is how far off the ground the simmer will go, and that will affect things like the level of detail radius and such, so there will probably be areas where flight and train will not be at all alike. Then too, statistically speaking, the editions of FS that come out after releases that feature a big technology change, like FS 2002 over FS 2000, tend to make the sim run smoother. Statistics, of course, would also say, "The coin flipped heads five times in a row, so now it will flip tails", so who knows how FS11 will run? Chances are, any add-on not written for at least FSX will not work at all in FS11, which could hint that FS11 will need advanced hardware to run, possibly hardware that doesn't yet exist. At this point, all we can do is speculate. Once TrainSim comes out, we may have a clearer picture as to what is in store for FS11. Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

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I am guessing that TrainSim will re-vamp the slider system. They pretty much will have to. Either the sliders available to the average user will be simplified (and then the advanced user will have to look to the game code for the tweaks), or else there would be a better Wizard system that would show off some kind of What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get slider arrangement (that's what I would like to see!).I sure hope so, that was the main problem with FSX. The options to increase detail to a level, no current hardware at time of release was capable of was in the GUI, so everyone naturally tried to run it that way, only to find a slide show, which didn't do anything to boost it's reputation. The GUI should have only given you options to support the HW of the day. This is a especially true in the general gamers market. Any extra detail possible with future Hardware should have only been available in a config file. I think they tried to do something like this with FSX with the PerfBucket field, but either it just didn't work or it was tuned too high!!

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Guest Zevious Zoquis

It's also worth noting that the FS series certainly isn't the only one that pushes technology. My new PC is several orders of magnitude above the best system that was available at the time Papyrus released NR2003, but if I max everything out on that venerable old classic (including all the advanced shadow options and so on) and draw the full field of forty cars, my framerate still drops into the mid fourties at times. I don't think the system exists yet that allows you to max Crysis out. In fact, in my experience over the years, there haven't been very many games at all in the "3D realm" that I've been able to install and run full out at the time of release.

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This has been discussed before. I am pretty sure they are investing alot more time in the scenery engine / graphics engine. The ACES team has split into diffferent branches each responsible for there own thing. Phil Tylor wrote a post about this:http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/archive/2008...-and-today.aspx Instead of one team at ACES there are now 4 teams!From Blog: "As we moved into the new space, the leadership team updated the Studio with a re-org plan to form 4 teams:1)Core 2)Flight3)Trains4)ESP"Notice the Core team. Core team owns the platform and the technology. They now pretty much have a whole team focusing on the scenery engine - for both Flight, Trains, and ESP. So I have no worrys. FS11 will kick butt no matter what. And with the technology we are seeing now and going to see in the future there is no doubt this will be an awesome product. Oh - and read this. It's from the job description for a program manager at ACES. "Your role will be to bring together the various diverse perspectives required to create a modern graphics engine to render the world database behind the world simulation. Updating the terrain and graphics rendering quality, improving resource management and performance, and staying ahead of the curve on technology advancements are key responsibilities." That is what ACES plans to do!

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Guest GA Flyer

>>...I suppose fs11 could come out ready to work with sliders maxed>right out of the box. But then it would probably look like>fs9-as that is presently what would work today with the>sliders all maxed on todays hardware! Would most simmers be>more satisfied with that? I know I would not, but if I were MS>I sure would be looking at this as an option. >>>>>>http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpg>>My blog:>http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/Thats very interesting what you say in your last sentence about "...if I were MS I sure would be looking at this as an option. " I wrote a thread about this some time back and thats not what you said then.http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...topic_id=425922In that thread you wrote. "Microsoft has stated that fsx is the best selling edition ever of any of the the fs series-so I don't think our hobby is at stake."I never doubted that it hasnt sold copies but how many of those owners are happy, know about the patch(es), read these kind of forums and understand MS's way of making FS designed for future hardware.My concerns at that time and still is that FSX might of done more harm than good with FSX. In my opinion. My belief is that MS needs to change the slider features to have a set level for at least a set system. That way if the user has the required system they will get a smooth flight.Hardware is not advancing like it use to so the idea of creating FS to work better later might not be the best way anymore. Not with the fact that its competing with console games and their users who are use to smooth games and make up a majority of FS's user base (not us hardcore simmers)With having all sliders set to the right, those who want to tweak the config files to get more would be able to via the FS Insider on what to tweak. (just like how we can create more or less Auto gen tress and building from inside the Config and not by the sliders) Bill Learning said in it that thread that if all sliders were right then we wouldnt need sliders. I disagree. Hes looking it at it on preformance and I'm looking at it on features. I believe sliders are needed but not to increase or decrease preformance but to have a customized flight. I want seperate GA and Airline AI sliders. However, my thoughts are that if you have the required system that you could have both of those set to 100% and it doesnt bring down preformance so you scale them back to the level of activity that you like. Sliders like that are need but not the kind that show you what you cant have when the sim is released because there is no hardware to run it.

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> snip...>>..."there's a psychology">>..."a better Wizard system that would show off>... some kind of What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get slider arrangement">I agree in part with the psychology of the slider. And would like to see more emphasis into the "WYSIWYG", or at least a complete individualized text description of each setting, so that expectations could be "set" as well. Right now the description is generic for the whole slider.I'm not sure whether it was the Scenery or Graphics slider that let you remove taxiway signs. This always seemed like a sacrificial level that should not even be permissible with a slider. Somewhat like TS without rails I'd imagine.

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Guest bluesky21

I think that there was such a disappointment with FSX that MS will reconsider pushing the limits with FS11.Any FSX owner just has to browse through a few websites before realizing that 75% of all addon planes, even recent ones, are for FS2009. I hear talk of how amazing Project Opensky planes are, but I have so much trouble trying to get them to work that I must abandon them. FS Passengers and other addon software is designed for FS2009. In brief, FS9 runs smoother, more people are willing to use it, so FSX has gotten relatively shafted. Hopefully MS will learn from their mistakes.

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