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Guest hmstiger

Notice to developers: no 2D cockpit - no sale to me...

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I just saw that a Caravelle freeware airplane is generously being offered by the AFG folks, and it prompted me to let the payware add-on community know that, as a fella that has historically spent waaaay too much $ on FS addons over the last several years, I will *not* be purchasing any aircraft that do not have 2D panels - ever.I say this because Microsoft seems to think that no-one cares about 2D cockpits anymore, and I'm here to say, "I do". I was extremely disappointed to see the Acceleration add-on aircraft have only 3D cockpits... I was initially looking forward to the EH-101 helicopter, but after realizing it's 3D-only, I've probably spent less than an hour in it vs. many many hours in the Bell 206. This is because I use a multi-monitor/computer setup for my "simulator", and this does not lend itself to a pure 3D cockpit for any number of reasons.This is just one guy's stance, but I'm hoping that my vote will be considered by the add-on developers when they're trying to figure out what to support.cheers,Dave B.San Jose, CA

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I don't disagree with you, but I'm just the opposite.With my TripleHead2Go setup, I won't download and/or purchase an aircraft WITHOUT a Virtual 3D cockpit. 2D ones don't span correctly (most of the time) across a 3840 x 1024 3-wide display. So I guess it all depends on the hardware you are using as to what your preferences are.

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While I agreed that the Caravelle would be just fine with it's 2D panel only, I can't think of any reason for panels such as those from RealAir to have a 2D varient. RealAir has gone 3D only with their GA size aircraft, and they are as crisp and fluid with the instruments as it gets. Perhaps the different views with the A key lends itself to multi-monitors? I don't know. But other than that, I could care less about 2D's for panels smaller than those found in airliner cockpits.L.Adamson

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I like 2D and 3d panels...What I hate is the views in FSX.....Even in 2D panel your views are obstructed with cockpit and wings..No up...Down.. Like in FS9...I spend lots of money to be able to have nice scenery to fly in,and you can't see it most of the time... Its very annoying to me to HAVE to keep swithcing views to see something...... Why not drop the views in 2D mode for us and keep them in 3D mode for those who want more realistic flight experience..But MS forcing us to have obstructed views is a farct IMO.....And I don't like that about FSX at all and is a real turn off for me....I loved in FS9 to be able in 2D mode to just use my hat switxh for looking all around....Not anymore......

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Dave,Would you pay extra to get a 2D cockpit?Say for example that the default add-on ONLY came with a 3D cockpit ... but also had a version that was 25% more money that came with a 2D cockpit also.Would you then purchase and pay the extra money for your specialized cockpit?

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Dave B,I agree, sort of. I prefer 2D-panels when I fly the airliners (PMDG 747, feelThere Embraer 170, Flight1 ATR-72-500). But when flying VFR with general aircraft I prefer the VC, which is very nice with TrackIR.If airliners should only have a VC, I still would need popup panels, which enables me to have the FMC and pedestal on my second monitor. Ulf B

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I like both, but the reality is that the VC cockpits in FSX have poorer FPS than their 2D counterparts. Something to remember when taxiing around those busy airports.Lee

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I am a VC only pilot unless I am forced or its just to difficult and time consuming to get to the switches.That said.....When are they ever going to get the LANDING LIGHTS figured out?Whats the deal? Is it a FS problems?1/2 of my planes the landing lights are really just a novelty.Same with the cockpit instrumentation.For most its all or nothing and some seem tied in with the time of dusk at which they come on.Another peeve. Window SHADOWS:-mad Yeah Yeah it was cool for a while but now its just plain annoying.I bought the Alphasim B-25 and while flying at night, you have this riduculous reflection of a empty seat staring at you. Some addon reflections are so strong you cannot see outside.And Pleeeeeeeze. No more jet pilot helmet and mask reflection!Dont get me started on the external nature sounds:-grr I am doing a flyby at Aerosofts Dillingham in one of the loudest,ear piercing,4 engine,gut rattling C-130s and what do I hear?A freakin bird chirping! Or how about sittin in a CH53 helicopter that you can hear for a mile and you can hear the waves lapping at the shore.Ok, ok, Coffees kicking in and I am ranting.No more shadows,external enviromental sounds or at least make them optional.2d cockpits.....Well I guess the airline guys need them but most GA,helis and smaller planes can get away with out em if the vc is done right.

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So I take it you feel the birds being heard over the Roaring C-130 is unrealstic??????? LOL

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>Perhaps the different views with the A key lends itself to multi-monitors?Exactly why I use 2D. R-EDIT to add -- Oh, the first thing that I did when I got Acceleration was build myself a 2D panel for the Hornet. R-

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>Dave,>>Would you pay extra to get a 2D cockpit?>>Say for example that the default add-on ONLY came with a 3D>cockpit ... but also had a version that was 25% more money>that came with a 2D cockpit also.>>Would you then purchase and pay the extra money for your>specialized cockpit?You bet I would if it had no wing /interior details included

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Hmm interesting topic. I feel that the 2d panel is on the way out. It takes some of the realism out of it a bit, and sometimes they don't match very well with the VC. I use it sometimes, and I have no problem with keeping the 2d panel if others use it as a matter of necessity. When I use a track IR and a VC, to me, there is nothing better. However, there are still a lot of addons where the text is still so hard to read that the 2d panels are a nice option to have. I suppose if they all can be done like RealAir has done, I would not need a 2d panel at all.

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I have to say I find the window reflections annoying at the best of times. I would like the option to turn them off.

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I hope the add-on developers are paying attention.Some people will pay extra for 2D panels if you build them ... but most people want VCs from here on out.Which is nice, because we know it costs extra to create 2D panels ... so, the solution is natural. Charge extra for them.You win (you got extra revenue for something that before was producing no extra revenue).I win (I paid less for the VC only version).Dave wins (he got his 2D panel.)Cheers,

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Glenn,But you CAN turn them off - very easily.Exit FSX and use Windows Explorer to look in your simobjects/specificaircraft/texture folder. Look for a .dds file with the word "reflection" in it.Change the extension .dds to .bak.Voila, you just turned off the cockpit windshield reflection for that aircraft. To turn it back on, rename the file back to .ddsCheers,

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>I am a VC only pilot unless I am forced or its just to>difficult and time consuming to get to the switches.>That said.....>When are they ever going to get the LANDING LIGHTS figured>out?>Whats the deal? Is it a FS problems?>1/2 of my planes the landing lights are really just a>novelty.>Same with the cockpit instrumentation.>For most its all or nothing and some seem tied in with the>time of dusk at which they come on.>Another peeve. Window SHADOWS:-mad >Yeah Yeah it was cool for a while but now its just plain>annoying.>I bought the Alphasim B-25 and while flying at night, you have>this riduculous reflection of a empty seat staring at you.>Some addon reflections are so strong you cannot see outside.>And Pleeeeeeeze. No more jet pilot helmet and mask>reflection!>Dont get me started on the external nature sounds:-grr >I am doing a flyby at Aerosofts Dillingham in one of the>loudest,ear piercing,4 engine,gut rattling C-130s and what do>I hear?>A freakin bird chirping! Or how about sittin in a CH53>helicopter that you can hear for a mile and you can hear the>waves lapping at the shore.>Ok, ok, Coffees kicking in and I am ranting.>No more shadows,external enviromental sounds or at least make>them optional.>2d cockpits.....Well I guess the airline guys need them but>most GA,helis and smaller planes can get away with out em if>the vc is done right.That was hilarious! :-lol Good points though; and I also have days when the caffeine kicks in all too well! *:-* I personally enjoy the OPTION of hearing environmental sounds even when the engine(s) are running (in certain environments).But I would like for others to have the option to turn them completely, off or to have them audible only when the engines are off.I spend most of my time in locked spot view admiring a gorgeous aircraft flying in beautiful scenery, but when I'm in the cockpit I have NO use for anything more than the faintest of subtle windscreen reflections; in real life GA aircraft flying, a properly maintained machine-buffed windscreen will hardly show reflections at all. ;) But I would like for other users to have the option of flying with more visible windscreen reflections if they wished.FSX DX10.x preview cockpit shadows look interesting, although my hardware+OS can't display them yet. I also have little use lately (but used to enjoy this in FS2002's FS Sky World) for the artificial scenario of flying VFR in heavy clouds (even IFR, what tower controller would let you take off in that weather, and if you did, believe me... in real life flying you wouldn't want to go there except in a "hurricane chaser" aircraft!).:-roll But I am glad other users have the option of flying with real world or user-configured weather with realistic clouds, thunder, and lightning if they wish.One nice thing about the FSX 3D virtual cockpit (VC) is that if constructed properly, it reportedly can display with less FPS hit than an average 2D.If I want an "Omnimax" or "Imax" flight, I follow the Rhumbaflappy (Dick Ludowise) recommendation to move the "Eyepoint" down so far below the cockpit floor that NO part of the aircraft shows; then I don't need the 2d cockpit hat switch "snap" views feature!{FSX install path}UIRESKneeboard_keys.htmVIEW COMMANDSEyepoint (move down) SHIFT+BACKSPACE <-- Press repeatedly in VC to tryPS: It's best to turn off head movement latency aka "MomentumEffect" in this view!http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...08782&mode=fullJust my 2 cents worth...Happy Flying! :-coolGaryGB

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Jim.You obviously are ranting for no reason at all and if you think through this issue logically you'd find chirping birds in a C130 totally realistic.Anyone knows that the reason that you heard the bird chirping in the C-130 is because the loadmaster had the rear cargo-bay door opened to get in some fresh air and a flock of pelicans flew into the airplane. Since you were too busy flying the airplane, you failed to notice that one of the pelicans snuck onto the flightdeck, made a nest under your seat, laid eggs and they subsequently hatched as you were flying over Dillinham. What you heard was the sound of young pelican chicks "chiping" out to the mother pelican who had flown back into the galley to get them some snacks. As you flew away from Dillingham the mother pelican returned with coffee and peanuts from the galley so the chirping subsequently stopped. The mother pelican then took her chicks and flew out of the flight deck, pecked your loadmaster's eye out (you will notice he is no longer standing in the rear cargo bay because he is getting medical attention) and flew away.Now that the situation has been adequately explained, I must ask that you apologize to the community for making false accusations.Thank you.Mike T.(On his 5th cup of expresso)

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I'm kind of the opposite.I fly mostly VC now, whether it be CLS DC-10 or light GA. I used to be 2D only but I have changed in the last two years for whatever reason.RhettFS box: E8500 (@ 3.80 ghz), AC Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64ASX Client: AMD 3700+ (@ 2.6 ghz), 7800GT

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Kevin,Thanks for that gem!Thats the best tip I have heard for a long time.

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Good point Mike!That's the main reason why I haven't bought the C130 - I only like 2D pelicans.......!Toni.

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HEY....Expresso Mike...That was hillarous.....LOL

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I also need and expect 2d panel views.All the above mentioned problems will be fixed in the next version of FS once the "waving hands" are one-hundred percent perfect. Providing there are a few hours of development time left.

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I have a confession to make ...I really, really hated Flight Simulator for the most part until 3D virtual cockpits were introduced.I just couldn't get past not being able to see out the windows and get my bearings.2D panels definitely have a purpose, and a usefulness (see OP point about multi-monitor setups). But as for trying to fly with them ... I just never could get beyond it.

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>>Dave,>>>>Would you pay extra to get a 2D cockpit?>>>>Say for example that the default add-on ONLY came with a 3D>>cockpit ... but also had a version that was 25% more money>>that came with a 2D cockpit also.>>>>Would you then purchase and pay the extra money for your>>specialized cockpit?>>You bet I would if it had no wing /interior details includedWith FSX you cannot have it both ways...The "wing/interior details" are part of the VC model (interior model). They will be visible in the 2d panel when you use the hat switch to look around.Either comment out the _interior entry in the model.cfg file for real FSX aircraft......or move the eyepoint down below the model for an unobstructed view.

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I just purchased the A2A B377 Stratocruiser, which does not have a 2D panel. This was a minus in my mind until I spent some time in it. It is a little extra work, but the view from the flight deck of this particular aircraft is so unique I don't think a 2D panel could have captured it.I have always preferred 2D panels myself, except for GA a/c, but I'm glad I was willing to give the Stratocruiser a chance.

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