>>Anyone with a paint program, a>text editor, and a set of gauges can make a 2D panel.>Really? All this time I thought it took only a magic wand.AmazingJim

Rhett, You say: "Anyone with a paint program, a text editor, and a set of gauges can make a 2D panel."It's a pretty bold statement to say the least. Wow. I might just reconsider my career then if this is the case. :-)1) "A set of gauges" is not a "tool". They have to be programmed, and the graphics have to be generated. This all takes many hours of work.Then you say this:"But try making a VC with those tools."2) Most gauges you see in 2D panels, are actually used in the VC as well, albeit a derivative in many instances, but from a programming standpoint it is the same code, and most of the time the same graphics being used.If it was so easy to make 2D panels as you think, many of the devs I know would be in deep trouble ;-)Henning

@ Rhett: I agree with you. Sometimes, it's the other way around: a developer makes a 2D cockpit but doesn't have the resources to complete a 3D cockpit.With the trend heading towards 3D cockpits only, that's a bit of a rarity, though.And I agree that more is better: a 2D and a 3D cockpit is welcome. For instance, I like the 2D cockpit in the FSX Cessna 172 with the advanced Garmin glass cockpit because in 3D the switches are incredibly hard to operate and the framerate stinks.Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

Track-ir killed the panel star!Ok, that was lame I know, but also kind of true I think. A 2d panel simply can't compete with a good VC when it comes to immersion in my opinion, and it was the track-ir that really set them free, but as the OP stated 2d panels do currently still have their uses.Really I think this problem will solve itself once we have truly large and affordable curved monitors (36"+) that can display resolutions on par with a digital camera, removing the need for multimon setups. At that point FMCs etc will be quite readable in a VC. Problem is that we're still in a transition period. The current crop of top end widescreen monitors don't quite have the resolution needed, but in a few years all will be good I think.Just as the digital camera has been consistently pounding nails into the coffin of film so I think it will eventually be for the 2D panel, relegating it to specialty setups. I for one don't miss either at all and I typically remove any 2d panels from my addon aircraft as soon as I install them. I'm all for pop up gauges in the short term though if necessary.Can you imagine though if this transition had taken place back when we all had 50lb 14" CRTS? ;)-mike

I was a dedicated 2d fan in fs9-after all the 3d vc's got real blurry, looked a little hasbro like, and the gauge sharpness let alone refresh rate was dismal.With fsx-the clarity, refresh rate,and now realistic looks have made me a convert. Tracker IR only sealed it.However, I still like 2d for some aspects. As far as difficulty- I have made many 2d panels but was never able to do 3d...then again I hate reading instructions.... :-)Neverless, GeofaMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

I also use a multi monitor setup. I fly using the upper part of the VC on my top main monitor, and have 2D gauges on homemade panel bitmaps, undocked on the lower monitors.I don't need a professional 2D cockpit with a panel bitmap to come with an aircraft, but what I really do need is access to the same gauges that are in the VC to use on my other monitors. The trend lately is to build the gauges into the model. You can't access them with Flight Sim Panel Studio to use them in home made panels in a multi monitor home cockpit setup. A good example of this is the Aerosoft Twin Otter. I had to use gauges from freeware Twin Otters on my secondary monitors. My main concern is that sooner or later in later versions of the sim, It will be hard to find 2d gauges, or they may not even work anymore. Bill

>>And I agree that more is better: a 2D and a 3D cockpit is>welcome. For instance, I like the 2D cockpit in the FSX>Cessna 172 with the advanced Garmin glass cockpit because in>3D the switches are incredibly hard to operate and the>framerate stinks.>>Jeff Shyluk>Assistant Managing Editor>Senior Staff Reviewer>AVSIM>I was waiting to see if I was the only one that has problems working the switches and turning dials when in 3D mode. It appears the more powerful the computer with very fluid cockpit movement in 3D mode makes it harder to keep a mouse pointer on a dial turning in the correct direction. The back and forth simulated body movement makes it almost impossible to change radio freq's, dial in altitude autopilot settings, set a switch on vs off, when changing the bank angle or speed values etc.In some 3D cockpits the eye movement to the right causes the Pilot to loose all visual to flying instruments because 3D has no peripheral vision to work with using a single monitor.Is there a work around to decrease the sensitivity (or remove it completely) of the simulated body movement which would make it easier to change the switches and rotate dials when the plane changes atitude, speed or altitude?

Personally I never use the 2D if available and the only reason I "would" be against including it is that it takes time in development, which takes time away from the release.Regards, MichaelKDFW

Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe nForce4 SLI-x16 / AMD

>I was waiting to see if I was the only one that has problems>working the switches and turning dials when in 3D mode. It>appears the more powerful the computer with very fluid cockpit>movement in 3D mode makes it harder to keep a mouse pointer on>a dial turning in the correct direction. >>The back and forth simulated body movement makes it almost>impossible to change radio freq's, dial in altitude autopilot>settings, set a switch on vs off, when changing the bank angle>or speed values etc.>>In some 3D cockpits the eye movement to the right causes the>Pilot to loose all visual to flying instruments because 3D has>no peripheral vision to work with using a single monitor.>>Is there a work around to decrease the sensitivity (or remove>it completely) of the simulated body movement which would make>it easier to change the switches and rotate dials when the>plane changes atitude, speed or altitude?I removed the head movement for the same reasons you mentioned. Search FSX.cfg for DynamicHeadMovement and change them to 0.I like pop-up gauges, now if someone would make big easy to turn pop-up dials, I would be happy. Could do with a right mouse click.

SkullxBones,Thanks for the tip :-)Ulf B

FSX missionguy wrote:"I really, really hated Flight Simulator for the most part until 3D virtual cockpits were introduced.I just couldn't get past not being able to see out the windows and get my bearings.2D panels definitely have a purpose, and a usefulness (see OP point about multi-monitor setups). But as for trying to fly with them ... I just never could get beyond it."This exactly sums up my experience too. My first MSFS was fs2000 and that Cessna 2d panel stretched across the screen put me right off. I just couldn't get any sense of 'being there' from what looked like a cardboard cut out and still have problems with 2d panels for the same reason now. Hope that 3d panels just get better and better like the Realair ones.

And its not microsofts fault. Developers can now make realistic and very efficient 3D panels. Many users, once using 3d panels will not use anything else. Including me. The only complaint i have is ," please have a click to remove yoke so i can reach those dam switches".,otherwise im cool.

>And its not microsofts fault. Developers can now make>realistic and very efficient 3D panels. Many users, once using>3d panels will not use anything else. Including me. The only>complaint i have is ," please have a click to remove yoke so i>can reach those dam switches".,otherwise im cool.I would add a complaint regarding some 3D panel solutions: Why not create shortcut 3D-views for radios, pedestal, fmc, overhead panels, etc. I have some 3PD ac that you would have to spend a lot of time moving around in the VC to be able to flip a switch on the overhead panel and another swithc on the FO side of the panel. And a lot of the VC panels are far from crisp and easy to read.Today VC work allright for small aircraft, but for advanced airliner add ons I still need plenty of 2D popup panels.Ulf B

There are shortcut 3D views in VC (or at least available). They are called camera views and for example in the default Maule you can get a view of just the radios or of the switches or of the fuel handle (although in the maule the 3D fuel handle does not work properly). Most 3D pits come with multiple camera views (just press the A key to cycle through them, or right click and choose the exact view wanted). I always add HIDDEN_FROM_CYCLE or what ever that line is so I only get the views I want with the A key. With a lot of acft, one view is the FO position.You can also with camera views turn off head latency for each view (I have it turned off completely). I never use the 2D views anymore and they are no longer in my "S" button cycle.YMMV,Phill

>There are shortcut 3D views in VC (or at least available). >They are called camera views and for example in the default>Maule you can get a view of just the radios or of the switches>or of the fuel handle (although in the maule the 3D fuel>handle does not work properly). >>Most 3D pits come with multiple camera views (just press the A>key to cycle through them, or right click and choose the exact>view wanted). I always add HIDDEN_FROM_CYCLE or what ever>that line is so I only get the views I want with the A key.>With a lot of acft, one view is the FO position.>>You can also with camera views turn off head latency for each>view (I have it turned off completely). I never use the 2D>views anymore and they are no longer in my "S" button cycle.>>YMMV,>Phill Phill, I guess you're talking about Aircraft.cfg file. Could you please give just one example of how and where it is done with HIDDEN_FROM_CYCLE line. I want to remove some views. Anyone? Thanks.Btw, guys, pls try to cycle (a and shift+a) 3D views in the new Coolsky's Super80Professional. Very smart solution, completely substitutes the need for 2D cockpit panel in a much more realistic way, wow. Hard to explain, but check it out yourselves. Instead of switching to 2D panel, I assigned 2 buttons on my joystick ("a" and "shift+a") to browse through the smart POV positions they arranged in 3D pit. Every button and panel are conveniently accessible, no need for TrackIr, if you don't like it. I think this is the beginning of the end of 2D cockpit view. Popup panels are different though, they will be needed of course.Dirk.