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mgh

Feelthere/Wilco - Normal Customer rights don't exist

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I have several products from this company all acceptable until I bought the FSX version of the 777 in late September 2008. I had problems from the start and was in contact with their technical support. However after a couple of weeks it was apparent they could not solve the issues therefore, I asked for a refund (only about a month after purchase, not merchantable quality, would not do what is was supposed to do) but despite paying a $40+ purchase price, they have offered me $10 towards another of their products. Sorry, but this will persuade me not to take up their offer and never purchase from them again.The problems, using Vista operating system, it never flew straight or level and the FMC produced some really odd data.Isn't it about time, all suppliers/producers of FS addon programs provided basic customer rights that you would get in the High Street. There are some good suppliers and there are companies like Feelthere/Wilco.Buyers beware!Rob

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I'm also compelled to add my usual comments about Wilco/Feel There, and their willingness to sell rubbish, following my purchase of Tower Simulator. No demo, no refund, no future business from me and many others...With regards to consumer protection, it would have to be carefully done, as there are people who would exploit such a system to try and get something for nothing, but publishers also have to play fair and not exploit consumers - it's a one way road to their own destruction.I recommend you simply spread the word about Wilco/Feel There and others, using their dwindling reputation to force them out of the market.

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Please not another thread about the alleged iniquities of Wilco/Feelthere. Hasn't this subject been covered here ad nauseam?

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Apparently not. As long as the business practices continue, customers are entitled to continue posting about their experiences. And that's fair.If the business practices change for the better, hopefully there will be a similar amount of "positive" posting.

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>Please not another thread about the alleged iniquities of>Wilco/Feelthere. Hasn't this subject been covered here ad>nauseam?Dear mgh, you say alleged? Have you ever purchased Wilco/FeelThere product? Before you go and use the word alleged perhaps you should perform a search and you will see how many unhappy customers there actually are. I have Vol 1 & 2 and I have recently purchased the E-Jets series as I was hoping thier product improved somewhat. To my astionishment the E-Jets series functions to my satisfaction, actually from the start it worked quite well. I have lost hope that Vols' 1 & 2 would ever be fixed and I have met with frustration when trying to get customer support as they would blame other addon installations or my operating system etc. Support is at best non existent. I am qualified to say that Wilco/FeelThere lacks somewhat in most of thier practices because of my dealings with them, I am not alleging anything. I agree that consumers should be made aware of WF and shy away until:1-They improve thier practices and product, or;2-Go by the way of the Do-Do Bird.Unless you have purchased thier product and are ecstatic about the product stop trying to defend them, if it bothers you don't read anything related to WF.Best,Robert Halmich

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My reasons for objecting to yet another thread complaining about Wilco/Captain Sim etc etc is the amount of misrepresentation they contain, and they appear to be ineffective.The OP argues that the developer "would not do what it was supposed to do" and give him a refumd because he claims the product is not merchantable and that he has not got "the basic customer rights that you would get in the High Street". All sellers of software in the UK High Street operate a policy of no refunds on opened software, but will exchange a CD that will not instal or load. That has become the de facto definition of merchantable in relation to software (In the UK the word merchantable was replaced by satisfactory in 1994.) I am not aware of any attempts to challenge this approach. The OP wouldn't get a refund in the UK High Street. Also, the European Directive excludes unsealed software together with ewspapers, periodicals and magazines from the right to a refund. The reasons for these approaches are obvious.You claim that I am defending Wilco/Feelthere simply because I post my views on this type of thread when there you have no evidence to support that.I believe these threads are ineffective because thay have existed for as long as I can remember yet the developers concerened are still in business.

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I am grateful for all your comments and respect them.I didn't consider for one moment that my post would affect Wilco/Feelthere.If I can ensure one person thinks twice about buying their products then my post would be worthwhile.I purchased some Photo Software from a major software company a couple of years ago. For some unknown reason, it would not work properly on my system. Similar to my experience this time with Wilco, their technical support provided some response but ultimately it still presented problems. I asked for a refund and got one!If I buy an electrical product down the High Street and it doesn't perform, I would consider my chances are fairly high of getting a full refund so long as I asked for one sooner rather than later.Yet Wilco/feethere have the cheek to offer $10 towards another of their products as a way of compensation.As I said, if this post only ensures some people think twice about buying their products, then that's good enough for me.Rob

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"If I buy an electrical product down the High Street and it doesn't perform, I would consider my chances are fairly high of getting a full refund so long as I asked for one sooner rather than later."There is a big difference between hardware and Software. You can return hardware and prove that you haven't kept it. I know of no way that you can return software and prove that you haven't kept a copy.That's why software retailers don't give refunds except in the cases i mentioned previously. It's also why software is excluded from the EU Directive. Until there's a way to prove that you haven't kept a copy then software will continue to be treated differently to hardware and you won't get refunds.

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"If I can ensure one person thinks twice about buying their products then my post would be worthwhile".I agree. people are sensitive to such criticism/feedback.I would never be bothered to go for a refund afer a software purchase, I put it down to just knowing better next time - I have alot of add-ons, most are exceptional products, some are average, a few are not quite what I expected, but I can accept this and I now know what to look for and identify before purchase.However I will never tolerate poor customer care, that shouldn't go unpunished and the best way to punish is to go elsewhere and/or to make public such concerns because they do impact sales, I flatly refuse to buy from this seller/developer - they are like two peas in a pod, one as bad as the other.One day the game will be up on these people.jlm

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So wat ur all saying is that theres no good 777 addons :(
No realistic ones... Just the same Feelthere is the developer behind some of the Wilco products (the one's that's worth mentioning) and is a good company. When your dealing with a company like Wilco it stands to reason why things would get crappy in the customer service department. I work for Feelthere from time to time and the good news is Wilco is no longer a factor. Feelthere has moved on to another publisher so this age old argument of support can be put to rest. More details will come with the next product...For the record I challenge anyone to make the case that the E-Jet series is crap. The E-Jet package is one of the best add-ons around. The next product out the gate is more of this very same quality. The Legacy is another outstanding product and the Cessna Citation X is not that bad either. Least we not forget Feelthere is the only one who was able to bring some sort of Airbus to the market where everyone else failed (that actually surpassed PSS's older effort). To this day we still have yet to see one (on our hard drives) from another developer. No it's not PMDG quality but it has served us well over the years until the proposed Aerosimmer effort see's the light of day...GUYS YOU CAN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT A DEVELOPER WHO BREAKS THE MOLD AND DOESN'T DO THE SAME AIRCRAFT OVER AND OVER AGAIN... How many developers are doing 767's now (add CLS to the latest list). Without Feelthere we still wouldn't have any decent Airbuses in FS9 no matter how you feel about it. We'd still be on freeware models including Overlands work. We wouldn't have a CRJ, ERJ, 737-300, and E-Jet in FS9/FSX. We'd have no real regional aircraft options period that wasn't freeware models. I actually don't mind their 777 as no one else is stepping up to the plate to do one. With Feelthere's bird at least I have things like TCAS and a weather radar. In FSX the Feelthere model is the only option for the 777 with a decent VC. I'm an FS9 flier and I must say the external Feelthere 777 model looks a heck of allot better than the PSS version. The flex wings actually work in FS9 which makes the whole external model look better than it does in FSX.Until some of you can get some of these developers to stop doing the same birds over and over again you can't say a thing about Feelthere. At least they listen and to the best of their abaility bring us some options. That's more than I can say about many of our payware developers...I'm currently working on Vic to get us a 717 on the level of their E-Jet series (you can throw in an updated CRJ/Classic 737 series to my request as well and he will actually consider it). In contrast I asked CLS about an update to their A300/310 series on the level of their 742. Some on the team actually agreed that would be a good idea. Next I find their forum closed down and all posts deleted. Now look, yet another 767 this time on the level of Posky's freeware VC version 777 with the intent of charging money for it (all the while we already have two outstanding options out there for both FSX and FS9). Some of you will say we haven't seen the model although we all know CLS doesn't do hardcore. It's a long shot this model will have what the little things the Feelthere 777 (so many complain about) has and that's a working TCAS and weather radar let alone all the other features a 767 product should have if it's going to compete with Level-D and/or Captainsim to name just two. Feelthere will drop a 717 before they go and do the same birds that's been done countless times over, that's an attribute I whole heartily respect in the FS market.

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Don't get too worked up about this, Les.This is the second post on different forums in the last 24 hours from first time posters, digging up year-old posts about Feelthere/Wilco.I smell a rat, or at least someone with a bone to pick.regards,Joe

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Wait a minute. Dont go ranting on at me because iv said theres no good 777 around. im looking for one thats fsx comp vista comp DXT10 compIm not in anyway rubishing feelthere or wilco. Iv been on flightsim.com for a year now and we've yet to see a 777 addon that ticks those boxes (Payware)I was just woundering if there was any new 777 releases out because christmas is just round the corner.

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Wait a minute. Dont go ranting on at me because iv said theres no good 777 around. im looking for one thats fsx comp vista comp DXT10 compIm not in anyway rubishing feelthere or wilco. Iv been on flightsim.com for a year now and we've yet to see a 777 addon that ticks those boxes (Payware)I was just woundering if there was any new 777 releases out because christmas is just round the corner.
Yes, but what you're missing is you've attached your question to a thread which has less to do with a 777 release and more to do with someone's concern over an issue they felt strongly about. The thread's a year old with no activity since 2008, then your post comes along and brings it back to the forefront. It is not proper forum etiquette to reopen a thread like this with your type of question. If you've been on the flightsim forums for a year you should understand. People usually do this for two reasons--forum inexperience, and from time to time there are people who join the forums who intentionally open up threads like these to stir things up. I don't think that's your intention and I do think it was inappropriate for someone to suggest that, but at the same time please understand what's best to do in the forums so you can enjoy your time here.-John

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I actually didn't realize how old this thread was... :(

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Yes, but what you're missing is you've attached your question to a thread which has less to do with a 777 release and more to do with someone's concern over an issue they felt strongly about. The thread's a year old with no activity since 2008, then your post comes along and brings it back to the forefront. It is not proper forum etiquette to reopen a thread like this with your type of question. If you've been on the flightsim forums for a year you should understand. People usually do this for two reasons--forum inexperience, and from time to time there are people who join the forums who intentionally open up threads like these to stir things up. I don't think that's your intention and I do think it was inappropriate for someone to suggest that, but at the same time please understand what's best to do in the forums so you can enjoy your time here.-John
I get ur point but i was just asking is there any 777 addons that would compare to PMDG 747. Because from wat iv heared there is not any "Very Good" 777 addons thats all. I only join AVSIM to seek some advise on this

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I get ur point but i was just asking is there any 777 addons that would compare to PMDG 747. Because from wat iv heared there is not any "Very Good" 777 addons thats all. I only join AVSIM to seek some advise on this
No there aren't. Not to PMDG standard.

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I get ur point but i was just asking is there any 777 addons that would compare to PMDG 747. Because from wat iv heared there is not any "Very Good" 777 addons thats all. I only join AVSIM to seek some advise on this
PSS/Just Flight's version is pretty good especially with a decent freeware soundset (I need to upload the one I created) but it's for FS9.

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Can't wait for someone to produce a really good Saab 340 and a BAE146.

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I'd love to see AVSIM create a section just for customer reviews of products, developers and merchants - kind of like a Trip Advisor for flightsim stuff.Don't get me wrong, I think posts like this are useful but AVSIM could close them and tell people to write a review. That is what they do on Trip Advisor. People regularly post mini reviews in the forums and threads get closed because they want people to post official reviews. Something like this would provide a huge service to the community.First, reviews and complaints would be easy to find. After a while this post will end up lost in the vast amount of info at AVSIM.Second, vendors would have an opportunity to respond to complaints in a public forum. They could set the record straight or even resolve a problem.Third, vendors will take issues seriously if they don't already do so. A bunch of 1 star reviews isn't going to drive sales where a bunch of 5 star reviews will.Lastly, the community will have an opportunity to look at several opinions about the same product. They can compare problems and weed out those that are either unreasonable or wouldn't effect them.I know when I book a vacation at a resort, I always do a ton of research in Trip Advisor. When I return, I usually post a review. I'd like to do the same here. AVSIM could incorporate their official reviews in to the process. They could say, "This is what we thought about product x, tell us what you think."They could limit reviews to non-commercial members and require that the member has over 100 posts in the forums to help weed out fake reviews and trolls. To keep things simple, reviews could be limited to a certain size.Although AVSIM is the flight sim bible, something like this would provide a valuable service to the community. With our increasing dependence on payware, a service like this would becomes even more important in the future.Just my $.02

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I know, but it is not the same as having the entire community being able to make comments on the products they own and apply star ratings. It seems like everyone has opinions on products but only one person (if that) will write a review. I think if many people could make short (one paragraph) reviews along with a star rating, we would get a good idea about the products. Coupled with a detailed AVSIM review, I know it would work well.

:( already exists right here at avsim -Reader's Product Reviews http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showforum=235--

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Sorry to say this, but the atrociousness of Wilco's service actually makes me laugh. Time and again I've read threads about their awful customer service.It does not do their reputation any good at all!I know i've certainly been persuaded not to buy their products, based on these complaints alone!

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I'm not sure how many payware FS comapnies offer refunds of their products or even if PMDG, one of the best, offers one. In the real world, when you computer software from places like Best Buy, Circuit City etc, they don't offer refunds. I realized that the hard way when I uninstalled Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon from my HDD and went to Best Buy to get my money back, because I was having problems with it on my PC, and I uninstalled the WHOLE thing so I wouldn't be able to run it, and when I got to the customer service they said no returns on software. I was to naive back then to know, but I partly understand why. Now if companies had some kind of way to uninstall a game then print out proof or some kind of uninstallation receipt by a special installer so we could get a refund that would be awesome.

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Think of it like this, Wilco obviously isn't willing to cooperate, so they may as well change their name from Wilco to No-Go!On the other hand, I personally would almost always be hesitant to buy software without a demo, and this example just proves why, they won't refund you if you get shafted... Only real way to counter it is with a dispute using paypal or your credit card company, which is a good reason for these companies to offer demos and refunds rather than force someone to use legal channels and cost them a LOT more in the end in lawyers.

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