OzWhitey

Aamir, did any of you folk try it out in VR? Amazing EFB and systems, but performance seems a step down from other airliners? Any chance of future performance tweaks if this actually true? Anyway, congrats on what you’ve built, day 1 purchase for me, I’m super excited!

Somebody asked about performance earlier. Fabio said 5 FPS slower than PMDG, but I think he was saying that it was smooth. chewy got some pretty awful stutters which he blamed on the scenery. This is probably the one thing I’m a bit concerned about. I was hoping external modules would lead to great performance, but that doesn’t really seem to be the case. amazing aircraft, definitely on my “to buy” list, but I Aldo know that - as a vr flyer - It’ll get left in the hangar if performance is not up to scratch.

These thread derails happen as much through posts like this praising other devs as they do from the people bashing devs in the first place. That single comment you are quoting has now probably led to two pages worth of counterattacks. Don’t love PMDG? Not relevant, if you bash them you’ll derail the Fenix thread. Love PMDG? Also not relevant, don’t overreact to slights against your favourite dev, just let it go rather than spending dozens of posts engaging the enemy. If anyone is going to compare Fenix with PMDG/FSL/FBW - which is legitimate conversation imo - try and maintain a sense of nuance. It’s the over-the-top comments that tend to start these flame wars. The last Fenix thread was a mess, let’s make this one better.

Well, you didn’t have to buy any of those for FSX either. There’s a heap of addons MSFS benefits from if you’re trying to make it a great sim. It’s a bit of a myth that you won’t need to spend money on MSFS. MS/Asobo were talking just this week about how many add-ons are now in the market. Literally thousands. I’ve got payware addons for airports, weather presets, AI traffic, ATC, ships and of course aircraft. I haven’t yet spent money on birds, but I did spend rather a lot to get a decent GPS. Now, you can say that I didn’t need to buy those, or their were freeware alternatives. That’s pretty much just the same situation as FSX, or X-plane, or P3D, or FS9. There will always be a lot of people happy with the vanilla sim, and there will also be a bunch of other people who choose to do whatever it takes to make the sim as good as it possibly can be.

It’s such a strange month to post this topic. We’ve never seen such a deluge of high-quality addons. Fenix is about to come out. There’s more quality payware than any of us can find time to fly properly. Maybe (a big maybe) if you restrict yourself to core sim only it’s possible to feel disappointed, but flight sims have always been about the larger ecosystem.

Uh, thanks for the feedback. TIL Tierborn is probably chief of recruitment pop-up QA for Asobo... 🙂

<eyeroll> It's a joke, Joyce.

Sure, so make a post called "30 Frames locked works for me". That's not what you did. You asked why people were concerned about frame rates, and then when people explained you keep insisting that it's "being macho" or "for bragging rights". That's pretty silly. Nobody here has bragged about their frame rate. Rather, a number of people have tried to explain why higher frame rates are important in certain use cases. You also keep bringing back the dubious idea that "car racing" etc is somehow completely different. Motor racing simulation = moving objects that you want to be smooth. Flight simulation = also moving objects that you want to be smooth. Go and try flying a Spitfire or an aerobatic plane, and then explain to me how this is different from motor racing. But more broadly, many have explained to you why they need or want more frames. Examples include: Smooth panning. Avoiding stutters during turns. Track IR. Professional sim use. VR Frame rates are certainly not the be all and end all, because frame-to-frame smoothness is also important. It can certainly make sense to lock frames for smoothness. But in ideal world where performance is not an issue, it is very unlikely that the frame rate we would choose would be 30 FPS. At the end of the day, the whole post seems based on a straw-man argument that people are aiming for massive frame rates just for bragging rights/"being macho"/for the heck of it. But I think that literally zero people here are doing that. Many of us are, however, chasing the dream of better performance because smooth flight in demanding use cases is something that we value.

No, it’s not about “firing up” people. I don’t think anyone cares if you really want to sim at 30 FPS if you’re happy with that. <shrug>. But expect people to respond if you make broad, over-reaching claims insinuating that 30 FPS should be fine for anyone. Like your silly “Mr Macho” comment, which suggests that you haven’t read anything that was actually posted in this thread. Even if you don’t care about smooth flight, professionals like the FAA do. You won’t get a flight simulator approved if the frame rate is insufficient.

I'm used to working in a 3.5 kilobyte environment (Vic-20 has 5 KB, but you can only access 3.5KB). So not sure how my BASIC skills will translate to VR programming - I guess we'll see if our French developer friends give my that job. I still think I could program a pop-up in BASIC that doesn't crash the sim, so I guess that would be a win for Asobo. 🙂

They’re offering QA jobs with a pop-up that crashes the sim. You don’t find that funny? No? Oh, I guess not. As for the “don’t you have a real life with real problems” comment. Lol, yes, let’s all fill this forum with talk about those. Actually, let’s not.

So, for anyone else who is stuck here, the solution is to ALT + ENTER into windowed mode, and then the pop-up can be closed. You can then follow the recruiting link to this: SDK QA Tester (FLIGHT SIM) Bordeaux May 2, 2022 Share this job offer Your goal: Test the SDK and the "Developer Mode" of Microsoft Flight Simulator. Are they joking?? Surely...surely they must be? Oh god, I don't think they are. They've inserted a recruiting ad into the program to hire someone to perform QA testing on the developer mode...and that ad crashes the developer mode page of the sim! Lol, nice work lads.

That's one of the easiest points to get on the "Avsim Frame Rate Discussion Bingo". Though I'm not sure you're right about every forum doing this. It really is something Avsim is famous/infamous for. There's been some stalwarts here over the years who were very, very negative about this newfangled 60 FPS, or in fact anything even vaguely close to it. Maybe it's like when Peter Jackson shot The Hobbit at 60 FPS. Audiences hated it, because they're used to a choppy 24 FPS, so 60 FPS looks "non-cinematic". If Asobo came out with a sim that ran 60 FPS smooth and stutter free, hundreds of old-school simmers would be like "My eyes are bleeding! This is wrong!", and would then add some frame rate limiter to keep it at 8 FPS, or whatever they've got used to flying. 😉

So you go into the menu to select Dev mode, and there's now a cute little pop-up that invites you to apply for a job coding for Asobo. Fantastic, right? Except - the clown who programmed this pop-up is so word not allowed incompetent that it crashes the sim. That's right, every time I go into this screen, the sim now freezes. Before their drunk coder made this feature, dev mode worked fine. Now, all inputs are ineffective, there's no way to leave the page, and you just have to close down the sim and start again. What the word not allowed, Asobo? Seriously, you guys can't even program a word not allowed pop-up without major bugs?? Is this a cry for help? "We like planes, but we're really not that great at coding, so please come and save us?" Or is it programmed by the rogue coder who keeps adding new bugs to the service updates? What is their hiring process like? HR: "Oh...this 'Hello World' program you wrote is really sick! You're on the team!" Do you guys get this problem? If it's just me, I guess I'll be honored that Asobo wants my coding skills so badly that they trap me on the recruiting screen. Spoiler, Asobo bros - I peaked when I was coding sims for the Commodore Vic 20. If you're happy for me to code in Basic and a bit of assembly, I guess I'm willing to come on board. My assembly is rusty, so it's going to be mainly Basic. Still should be able to get you guys better frame rates than your current team. So, uh, if anyone else is getting the same problem - is there a fix? I haven't been able to get into Dev Mode for a couple of days now, and there's some dev stuff that I really need to do. Thanks for any advice on how to fix it. And to the Asobo guy who coded the pop-up: My advice, don't give up your day job. Oh...this is your day job. 🙂

I’m going to take the contrary position and say frame rates are actually very important in flight sim. High frames rates - as long as they are consistent - are a big part of achieving smoothness, which is part of the verisimilitude needed to truly replicate flight. However, it seems to me that there are a large number of old-school Avsimmers who hold “FRAMES RATES ARE NOT IMPORTANT” to be part of their religion. Perhaps because of the trauma of having to accept 6 FPS from FSX on release, they want to believe that this is normal. 🙂 There have been many infamous discussions of this here over the years, often remarked on in other corners of the internet (Reddit likes to laugh at Avsim for its belief that ‘humans can’t see more than 12 fps’, or whatever madness is being claimed in a particular thread). If you fly Aerofly FS2 locked at 120mor even 240 FPS it’s really smooth. Very different to the rather poor frame rates we’ve got used to with FSX/MSFS. It seems that a number of (predominantly older) simmers have become used to very low frame rates, are happy with this, and don’t know why the kids want better performance. What I want is smoothness. It is really, really important to me. I suspect that those who are happy with snail-type frame rates sim in a particular, old-school fashion that involves staring at the screen straight ahead. However, once you try and implement more modern visual solutions, 30 FPS is pretty dire. Try Track IR - not great. But even more importantly, VR. I have not simmed without a VR headset on since 2017. It is truly the most immersive thing that has ever happened to flight simulation. It is amazing. But it also takes a very high number of frames per second to be truly smooth. I would like 120-150 FPS in flat screen mode so that I can match the refresh rate of my headset in VR. Even if you insist on simming in 2D like it’s still 2012, you would still want enough frames to match the refresh rate of your monitor in an ideal world. If you don’t want this, you don’t really care about smoothness. And given that real flight is smooth and free from stutters, my question is - why? So please, if you do not want those extra frames, give them to me. I need all the frames per second that I can get! 🙂