>I think people are confusing autoland requirements and CatII>or CatIII approaches. >>I believe the rules are if the there are two functioning and>independent autopilots, any approach except Cat111b or CatIIIc>can be done. Any handflying (not including landing) in CatII>or CatIII can be done, but I do believe a HUD is required.>This doesn't mean pilots don't do it, but most SOPs require>the autopilots to fly the approach to DH. >>Newer jetliners can make an autoland with a 25 kt crosswind>component. I've been fortunate to actually observe one from>the jumpseat into KTPA with an 18 kt crosswind. Very>interesting. The wx wasn't that bad, the captain just wanted>to show it off.>>So, two A/P for coupled approaches below CatI, three A/P for>the autoland. Unless of course there is a HUD.>>WesYou are refering to regulations that applie to aircraft in general. The requirement to which I refer is specific to the 747-400, due to the unusual height of the cockpit. At least that is what the PMDG manual states.Andrew

Personally I only use the Autoland function if the visibility is too low.So far that happened only once at Oslo last Winter. At all other times I either fly manually from LOC/GS capture or from DH depending on my mood.

Because in CatIII conditions they are NOT allowed to land manually :)They also must Autoland once every certain period to remain current at Autolanding.If they loose currency and arrive somewhere with CatIII conditions prevailing then they will be forced by law to divert to an airfield with better weather, even though their aircraft is CatIIIc equipped.That is WHY pilots use Autoland :)

Autoland recency is normally done in the 6 monthly simulator check,with about 6 approaches flown,1 being 3 engine,1 a go-around and 1 having a failure to deal with,plus 3 normal ILS down to the diffent minimums.The aircraft does have to have carried out a practice autoland within so many days to keep certified(not too sure what the limit is but engineering would make a request for 1 if required)Andrew is quite right,anything below CAT 1 has to be flown with the autopilot engaged,thats at least on the 744,but I would have thought it would apply to all aircraft as its the visual segment of the runway enviroment thats the limiting factor not the size of the aircraft.Doing an autoland for real luckly is rare on our route structure,but is bloody scarey,try driving your car at 160mph in 150 meter fog into a tunnel to give you some idea.A lot of initial low viz training is designed to give you trust in the systems,but its still quite a leap of faith to do it for real.RegardsJon

Jon,"...but is bloody scarey, try driving your car at 160mph in 150 meter fog into a tunnel to give you some idea"Sounds like a lot of drivers here in Toronto would do just fine for monitoring autoland then. As they don't seem to be scared at all... LOLI'm usually in the other end of the tunnel trying to aviod them. That is scary!Hep,

>>>Category II approaches ARE Autoland with two autopilots>>controlling the aircraft during the approach, >>No, they are NOT. There are many Cat II approaches flown every>day with NO use of Autoland.>>Michael J.Mike, I think you're wrong here my friend. The following are taken from Mike Ray's "747-400 Simulator Checkride Procedures Manual", page 263 for CAT 1 ILS and repeated AGAIN on page 265 for Cat II/III ILS. I'm quite POSITIVE Mike Ray has more time flying REAL ILS approaches in the REAL Queen than all of us have in the sim combined:"The Autoland is a Multiple Autopilot Maneuver" <

Because having the auto-pilot on means you can concentrate on other aspects of flying such as traffic avoidance, monitoring systems for abnormalities, etc. Personally, I never use auto-land, but in real life, pilots should use it more. As much as they don't want to admit it, the AP can fly the airplane much better and more percise than a pilot can in most conditions.

I was talking in general, not about the 744 alone.Cat II does not require autoland for all aircraft types. Cat II dates back to 1964 and nobody was doing autolands in 1964. In the document below you can get more info, including the list of airborne equipment needed for cat II.http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examine...e4/4_002_01.pdfMichael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

>With regard to the Cat III autoland, I didn't know you had to>have the APU up and running to supply electrical power!>Thanks for the tip :-) I will now start it up on descent :-)>>I should have clarified a little more on this statement. It is required ONLY for twin engine aircraft. Since the Queen has four power plants, it's not required. Additionally, since she's a four engine baby, the "One Engine Out" procedure for a CAT III ILS is the same as all four running. There is no penalty incurred for an engine loss!

>>I was talking in general, not about the 744 alone.>>Cat II does not require autoland for all aircraft types. Cat>II dates back to 1964 and nobody was doing autolands in 1964.>In the document below you can get more info, including the>list of airborne equipment needed for cat II.>>http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examine...e4/4_002_01.pdf>>Michael J.Mike,That document pertains to the certification of runways and aircraft for CAT II/III ILS operation, including MEL. (For aircrew requirements, F.A.R. Part 61.13 deliniates the certification requirements.) The document has nothing to do with the procedure, nor legal requirements for CAT II/III operations, and further doesn't support your claim that "CAT II are NOT Autoland."Simply put, if the weather goes below Cat I minimums, a pilot MUST use autoland. If the runway, aircraft, or aircrew are not certified to land below CAT I, they MUST fly to an alternate. This requirement is completely independant of what type aircraft one is flying.

>Simply put, if the weather goes below Cat I minimums, a pilot>MUST use autoland. You have not supplied a single proof to support your claim above. Until you do I will stick to the facts known to me now.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

>>Simply put, if the weather goes below Cat I minimums, a>pilot>>MUST use autoland. >>You have not supplied a single proof to support your claim>above. Until you do I will stick to the facts known to me>now.>>Michael J.Mike,A CAT II ILS REQUIRES two autopilots. Two Autopilots means AUTOLAND. This is a system design, not a pilot elective. You can not operate two autopilots and NOT autoland.If weather goes below CAT I minimums, a pilot must use CAT II, meaning two autopilots, meaning autoland. Can I be any more clear?Proof was provided in my very first post on this subject. What you know now is not correct because you are either misunderstanding or misinterpreting what is written. Better yet, you show me where it says you CAN land CAT II without autoland.

>Better yet, you show me where it says you CAN land CAT II without>autoland.Just becuase I'm curious here, show me where it says you HAVE to use autoland.

>>Better yet, you show me where it says you CAN land CAT II>without>>autoland.>>>Just becuase I'm curious here, show me where it says you HAVE>to use autoland.When conducting CAT II operations, you have to have two autopilots. Proof of this requirement is in the document that Mike cited above. TWO autopilots AUTOMATICALLY arm the autoland sequence. It is implicit that CAT II is autoland. It is system driven requirement, not a pilot choice!If you don't believe me, try a dual autopilot approach in the Queen next time. I'll bet you $100 that the FMA announces "LAND 2"!

Ted,I can only say you area DEAD wrong but I have no desire to convince you - I only write this so others may want to learn a bit. I always considered this forum as a great source of learning for those who are not afraid to expand on their knowledge. I am not always 100% right but in this case I am afraid I am.The FAA site has wealth of information on the subject. Including this:http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examine...e4/4_002_05.pdfwhere it is clearly stated, black on white:Currently the B-747 is the only aircraft that must have autoland capability to conduct standard CAT II operations (DH 100 and RVR 1200).I don't think there can be anything clearer than this.I would also bet there are airplane capable of some CAT III operations that do not have autoland either. I distnictly recall reading in FLYING in the last year that Gulfstream G550 equipped with special version of the HUD is allowed to do CAT III(x) with no autoland. But I am not going to pursue this point with you, I don't think I will get anywhere. Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg