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RW operations in climb

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I tried a search for this but it was 34 pages so I am going to ask.I have an understanding that in the US you must remain below 250kts below 10000 feet. When climbing out in the 744 heavily loaded for a flight from KSFO to EDDF my VNAV climb speed was 275 which when it reached that speed it allowed me to retract my flaps completely. If it had not gone to that speed I may have had remain in flaps 1 all the to 10000 feet. Is permission given to very heavy aircraft to go above 250kts without getting busted?Thanks

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I recently read that no permission in the US is granted for speed beyond 250. ATC does not have the authority to lift the 250 below 10,000 foot restriction per 91.117(a), so you can't be told nor can you violate such action.I'm unlcear why you would've reach 275 knots. The FMC, unless you can override the 250/10000 with a faster speed, shouldn't let you do it in VNAV. I've only entered slower speeds and don't fly RW, so I can't say for sure though.

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Same general speed restriction is valid in Europe, but I haven

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If the clean speed is above 250 then heavy aircraft are allowed to exceed, they need to inform ATC prior to departure. As far as I'm aware when heavy VNAV will automatically give you a faster speed unless you tell it to maintain 250.

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>>If the clean speed is above 250 then heavy aircraft are>allowed to exceed, they need to inform ATC prior to departure.> As far as I'm aware when heavy VNAV will automatically give>you a faster speed unless you tell it to maintain 250. Thats exactly what I read and believed too....Reider

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Just so you know, this exact issue has been kicked around the Radar Contact forum for years. It was a deep discussion for both the development and beta teams over several versions of the program. In the end, a comprimise was set whereby, if the departure occurs outside the US, a Radar Contact menu item appears, allowing the PF to request permission for >250Kt <10Kft. If the departure is in the US, this menu option does not appear.This is also an issue for me when using other add-ons including FSPassengers and FS Flight Keeper. Although there are config-edits available to the programs, by default they will penalize you for busting 250k/10Kft no matter the aircraft or where your departure occurs. So I just input a restriction of 250/10000 in the VNAV climb page and if I'm heavy, use flaps-one to 10Kft. Sometimes the integration of multiple addons to a single simulation scenario can become somewhat burdonsome. Give and take...

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Like you said, it's possible to switch of the restriction in both programs. A lot better then the high drag and extra fuel flow from flaps 1. No excuses for busting speed on the way back down :) Rob

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Guest Just747-400

Dear Captains,When minimum clean speed is greater than 250 Kts below 10,000 Ft the pilot will inform the ATC accordingly ex:

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Hi,I am not a pilot myself, neither do i have any idea about the RW regulation all over the world, but : I have great respect and confedence (sorry if this is not the correct word, my native language is Dutch)for the people who write the TRC ;-)In TRC 4 page 12 it states :"If an online ATC controller tries to argue the 250 knot limit with you: Simply refer them to 91.117 paragraph (d).

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Okay, well I didn't know that you could exceed the 250 limit. I guess if ATC tells you to do you can't, but you can ask? Seems odd.

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But the point I tried to make is, if you're using Radar Contact with a departure in the US and you really don't want to greet FDSO at the end of the flight, you'll have to keep it below 250/10K. I know, he keeps taking my license. ;)

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William,Alex just confirmed that 91.117 applies to RW operations as well. The captain of the ship is the captain of the ship. As far as I understand ATC can not order the pilot to operate below minimum safe airspeed.Cheers,

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Guest Just747-400

I never used this Radar Contact at all so I have no knowledge about. Anyhow, World wide, that scenario never happens with us

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Radar Contact will always insist you stay at or below 250 knots under 10,000', unless you select the "heavy" aircraft when you run the program, then once you take off and start climbing you can ask if you can bust the 250 limit and either get it or not. Apparently, since heavies that might need to exceed the 250 limit are legally allowed to do so when ATC is notified, Radar Contact is wrong in how it handles this procedure and should give the option prior to take off. I guess it's all about authorization, but RC should give this option prior so you aren't fumbling through menus while trying to climb out.

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>William,>>Alex just confirmed that 91.117 applies to RW operations as>well. The captain of the ship is the captain of the>ship. As far as I understand ATC can not order the pilot to>operate below minimum safe airspeed.>>Cheers,Thanks for the update Mats

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Alex,Radar Contact is a program to deliver realistic ATC to our otherwise lonely FS flights.While implementing the 250kt below 10 rule into Radar Contact in one of the previous versions of the program, I checked the pprune forums to help us decide how to put this rule into action. Several replies posted there questioned the use of flaps 1 on climb to stay at or below 250 up to 10,000ft.You wrote that due to operating limitations a speed higher than 250kts is *required* when heavy. Does this mean leaving flaps 1 out and staying at 250kts until 10,000ft is an unsafe method of climbing? Maybe it is a fuel guzzler, but does it mean only clean can be safe?I ask this because during the approach stages (even though much lighter now) speed restrictions applied by ATC may restrict decent to temporary level flight at say, 4000ft at 220kts. This also requires flaps 1 or 5 hanging out, yet is not considered an unsafe way of flying.Please do not take my post as a way of 'questioning' your knowledge or experience - it is more a question due to interest and facilitation of discussion. I can also take back what I learn from this thread to enhance procedures applied by Radar Contact in future versions.Thanks,Subin.

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Hello All If it is necessary a pilot may operate at speeds above 250kts below 10000 ft due to operational restrictions (i.e. minimum safe airspeed for weight. The need to advise ATC of this need Tony Megowan Air Traffic Control Specialist Santa Barbara Tracon/Tower

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Guest Just747-400

Dear Subin,I am open to any questions and don

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I`d take everything you read on pprune with a big punch of salt!As someone stated the 250<10 is a federal ruling in the US and so local ATC can`t lift the restriction. In the UK the phrase "no ATC speed restriction" had also been understood to mean the 250 limit was still in place. It has now been clarified that no speed restriction in the uk means just that,no speed control.In either case the limit is 250 or minimum safe clean speed, and is usually taken as read by ATC for heavy aircraft.If speed becomes a problem for seperation a speed or heading will be assigned.cheersJon

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I'm not sure if it made RC 4.3 but in version 5 in FAA areas speed relief will be available for heavies after contacting departure.One of our "resident" FAA controllers stated in most areas it is the DC that grants the relief and it will be in the inflight departure menus.As of May, 2007, as a test Houston can grant speed relief at clearance time. It is proposed that each airport traffic area manager examine and decide in what circumstances this is to occur.I have not checked the FAA sight for any progress. The airlines are requesting this relief for more than heavies.

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FYI, It is possilbe to go over 250kt below 10000 in HK. pilot:'XXX, request high speed descend'ATC:'XXX, high speed descend is approved'.ORATC:'XXXX, you are cleared for ELATO one alpha arrival, expected rwy 07L, from mango direct to sokoe, all attitude and speed restriction cancel' Frequenlty happens in the morning for traffic coming from the eastBen

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I don't know if this will help but I have heard 747s get relief on the 250 knots when departing LAX many times. Actually all the times I have heard it ATC just gave it. I never heard the 747 ask for it. They may have requested it in their flight plans or something but it is not uncommon. I have also benn given the no speed restriction out of Houston a few times but I haven't gotten it in a long time. I heard Delta was given releif on that and hit some birds at well over 300 knots. The story is that many of the birds penetrated the cockpit. Since I heard that story I haven't gotten the no speed resrticion clearance.

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Tom raises a good point there, even with the ATC speed restriction I personally limit the speed to 300kts below 10,000ft because of the danger possed by birds and PPLs!Talking of birds there was a flock of 30-40 very large birds circling in a thermal right on the ILS path at about 1500ft going into 17L KMCO yesterday, lucky they were about 50ft above the glideslope! What would they be eagles or condors?cheersJon

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I thought the Concorde was given a specific waiver such that they did not need to request permission each time, but I could be wrong.As for the flaps issue, Minimum Safe Airspeed is given for various configurations, but in general, it applies specifically to clean MSAspeed.As for the talk about the restrictions and clearance by ATC, 14 CFR Section 91.117 is real and used in real world ops. Listen to a scanner around an airport serving heavies. You'll hear a lot of clearances for speed adjustments.Cheers,Kyle

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