No I've not written anything with the Xplane plugin SDK. However I have written apps (for internal use only) using FSX Simconnect. IMO here are a few areas where the Xplane plugin SDK is more advanced than SimConnect:-1) Its possible to draw directly on the OpenGL internal and external plane textures every visual frame (Xplane calls your drawing "callback" method). A plugin can draw its own guages or "2d panels". MSFS is limited in the number of 2D panels it can use, and because the PMDG MD11 is using almost all the available panels, FS2CREW MD11X can only display 2 of its own panels. 2) Plugins can communicate with each other by publishing their own "datarefs" and sending messages. This means plugins can be tightly integrated. For example, a limitation with the PMDG MD11 and FS2CREW MD11X is that the user needs to manually tell FS2CREW the Vrefs via a FS2Crew dialog because FS2Crew has no way to interrogate the MD11 Vrefs. A XPlane MD11 could publish "Datarefs" for the VRefs which would allow a Xplane FS2Crew to read those VRefs directly, with no manual input required by the user. 3) Xplane plugin SDK allows for a camera to be dynamically placed anywhere in the world. In SimConnect you must use the SetCamera6DOF function which only controls the VC camera. This is fine for TrackIR , but you can not place the camera further than about 2,000 meters from your plane, which means you cant write a AI plane spotter to dynamically track AI aircraft if they are more than 2,000 from your aircraft.No doubt there are many others...

If the SDK is so great, and can do all those things, Is there any X-Plane Addon with the complexity of a PMDG, LDS, Captain Sim, or even Wilco aircraft now? Are there addons that replace the seriously lacking ATC system? Or are there addon's that do the things FS2Crew does, or FSPassengers, or FDC Live Cockpit? No, so how can you possibly claim FSX is more limited than X-Plane, when it can produce these types of addons, and X-Plane to date can not??

If the SDK is so great, and can do all those things, Is there any X-Plane Addon with the complexity of a PMDG, LDS, Captain Sim, or even Wilco aircraft now? Are there addons that replace the seriously lacking ATC system? Or are there addon's that do the things FS2Crew does, or FSPassengers, or FDC Live Cockpit? No, so how can you possibly claim FSX is more limited than X-Plane, when it can produce these types of addons, and X-Plane to date can not??

As an owner of X-Plane 8 & 9, and demos for many years; I read the forums at X-Plane org. all the time. There are many complaints from those who are familiar with MSFS, as to why X-Plane can't do this and that. Seems like there are a lot of MSFS traits that are not possible in X-Plane, now or in the short future..........according to those highly familiar with X-Plane.L.Adamson

Matthew,Your displeasure with FSX flows freely and is recognizable even without my glasses on. And while I acknowledge your contributions to FSX scenery design, I feel I must inquire about your in-depth knowledge of the X-Plane plugin SDK. Is there a link to something that you have written and released with the XP plugin SDK? I spent a couple of hours browsing through the XP world earlier and didn't see a thread or link to your work.What I did see in my browsing of the XP world is many unsubstantiated claims about the product. Granted, there won't be anyone to step up and fund the research necessary to see if XP's methods of flight are truly better than MS's, but there are plenty of people willing to spread that as gospel. Fan-boyism at it's best! That's what I think.But... I did order X-Plane and will even get a free payware plane for doing so! I really don't have the money to spend, but I wanted to see for myself what all the talk was about and to not settle for some party line about which inconsequential feature was better in XP vs. FSX and vice a versa.I will see what a non-flat runway feels like in X-Plane, I hope, having downloaded the airport editor that's available. And I did notice one of the developers mentioning over 300 land class options, which sure beats MS's lousy 100+. Who knows, maybe I'll see if I can design a version of Chester-Rogers in X-Plane, just so Geofa has some place to fly around that he feels comfortable with...

Good for you, just wanted to correct you. There ARE slopped runways in FSX, it depends on who develops the scenery. If you search the AVSIM library for "French Altiports" and set the scenery you will have slopped runways at each of the 4 altiports.Also check out http://www.simtours.net/courchevel.php.They have links to FSX scenery products with slopped runways. Only a small percentage of developers have stepped up to the plate to design slopped runways, and it IS possible in FSX :(

Sorry. I was having some trouble with the forums, but its back to normal. Sorry for the double post! :(

First, we must remember that none of these flight sims actually fly. The only moving air, is the CPU's cooling fan! :( And although X-Plane is attempting to create a synthetic flow of air molecules over a flight surface...............it simply doesn'thave the power of pure accuracy. Over the years I discussed tweaks for real aircraft such as root cuffs, vortex generators, etc. They canmake a big difference on the real airplane, but you can't tack one on to an X-Plane to see the difference. Another example is the new LSA Cessna. The proto-type was lost in a spin accident, when it couldn't recover. It now has a larger vertical stab, and it's not raked back as sharp. Do you think they could have found the answer with X-Plane? No................it took some good wind tunnel testing.

Things like root cuffs and vortex generators can be perfectly modeled in X-Plane by altering airofils characteristics, since that's what thay actually do.Let's make one thing clear, X-Plane is not a real-time CFD application, and every aircraft needs at least some tweaking to perform like it should.Regarding LSA Cessna, as I already said X-Plane flight model is lacking in post stall regimes (as MSFS is), and both requires heavy tweaking in these regimes to perform in a realistic manner. We need a developer like RealAir.Marco

Well actually I think you nailed my complaint.Glass cockpits to me are fairly easy to make look good-after all-they are just another computer.When I look at the instruments that I use however and are typically found in the GA fleet (and not Larry's homebuilt where he can put all the latest and greatest)-like a stormscope (sorry but the xplane one looks like something out of fs4), basic steam gauges etc., nav/comms it really looks primitive. They do remind me of the look we had in the fs4 era.

Have you seen the Hurricane in the youtube link? It's cetainly not a glass cockpit :)Actually I don't think X-Plane default gauges are so bad, and certainly not at fs4 level. I actually find many of them better looking than MSFS default ones.Surely X-Plane needs better default avionics for things like GPS and NAV/COMMS.I'm pretty sure WRT gauges, X-Plane capabilities is at least on par with FSX (except for wx radars, since the weather system is less complex than MSFS).Developers like RealityXP could do wonders, and I hope they'll do.Marco

Well actually I think you nailed my complaint.Glass cockpits to me are fairly easy to make look good-after all-they are just another computer.When I look at the instruments that I use however and are typically found in the GA fleet (and not Larry's homebuilt where he can put all the latest and greatest)-like a stormscope (sorry but the xplane one looks like something out of fs4), basic steam gauges etc., nav/comms it really looks primitive. They do remind me of the look we had in the fs4 era.

FS4, FSX, X-Plane 9: Marco

FS4, FSX, X-Plane 9: Marco

Again-I am in complete agreement. The fsx cessna has not changed since fs2000-the gauges hand drawn in the same way they are in xplane. I've been complaining about this for a long time-the inside view has not kept up with the outside view in fs-in the defaults at least.How ever go outside the defaults and we have:3rd party xplane Baron, 3rd party fsx Baron, real Baron:I personally can't tolerate those hand colored cockpits anymore-both the panels, glareshields, and instruments. There is quite a difference at least to me in real looks from the first shot to the last real one. Can one do real looking ones in xplane-both panels/real working instruments? I haven't seen any yet but would love to see some. Most add on fsx planes have a much more realistic higher quality look e.g. Dreamfleet Dakota, Eaglesoft Commanche etc.

Good for you, just wanted to correct you. There ARE slopped runways in FSX, it depends on who develops the scenery. If you search the AVSIM library for "French Altiports" and set the scenery you will have slopped runways at each of the 4 altiports.Also check out http://www.simtours.net/courchevel.php.They have links to FSX scenery products with slopped runways. Only a small percentage of developers have stepped up to the plate to design slopped runways, and it IS possible in FSX :(

In X-Plane all runways and taxiways are sloped by the underlying terrain, and not just custom made ones like in FSX/FS9. The 9.22 release notes say this "We now have better flattening around airports (especially coastal ones). This means that runways always have gentle slopes and gradients, just like real runways!"

Hi Guys,I really shouldn't step into this, but ... it seems to me that there is some fuzziness in the discussion between:(1) what ships in the simulator package on its own (e.g. I buy only FS X, FS 9, or X-Plane 9, and I do not buy any add-ons or download any free add-ons) vs.(2) what the simulator is _capable_ of (e.g. what is permitted by the SDK) given enough time and effort via a third party) and(3) what is readily available as an existing third party add-on.As a developer of the core sim, I am most concerned with item (2) because if it isn't possible to do X, only someone from LR can remove that road block. But to users, perhaps (1) or (3) is most important, depending on how much money that user is willing to spend.Case in point is the discussion on panels. I have very limited knowledge of the panel and gauge system in FS X, although some FS third party developers have taken the time to explain it to me, and we have discussed similarities and differences.And to be honest, I do not see any _major_ 2-d panel capabilities in FS X that are not also in X-Plane. Both are based on compositing of 2-d bitmaps, with animations driven by third party code or core sim variables.There may be some built in default instruments in FS X that X-Plane does not have - I do not know. But is it possible to make a really beautiful 2-d cockpit? I am not sure what you would be stopped from doing in X-Plane that you can do in FS X.(And of course, if someone tells me: "well, we can do this trick", I am going to think carefully about whether that trick should be in X-Plane too...)The cockpit and panel system for version 9 has evolved a lot from version 8 (the upcoming 930 patch will add even more functionality). My hope for this thread (and it's not really up to me, it's not my forum, it's not my topic, etc.) is that the discussion will be data driven, so that I can evaluate any gaps in capability that X-Plane has.Now if the issue is: PMDG doesn't make airplanes for X-Plane -- well, that's another story. If the feature you like about MSFS is that there are a ton of third party add-ons, well, it is what it is.But having worked on the capabilities of X-Plane as a platform, I hope we can be clear on where there are differences in availability vs. differences in capability.cheersben

Hi Guys,I really shouldn't step into this, but ... it seems to me that there is some fuzziness in the discussion between:(1) what ships in the simulator package on its own (e.g. I buy only FS X, FS 9, or X-Plane 9, and I do not buy any add-ons or download any free add-ons) vs.(2) what the simulator is _capable_ of (e.g. what is permitted by the SDK) given enough time and effort via a third party) and(3) what is readily available as an existing third party add-on.As a developer of the core sim, I am most concerned with item (2) because if it isn't possible to do X, only someone from LR can remove that road block. But to users, perhaps (1) or (3) is most important, depending on how much money that user is willing to spend.Case in point is the discussion on panels. I have very limited knowledge of the panel and gauge system in FS X, although some FS third party developers have taken the time to explain it to me, and we have discussed similarities and differences.And to be honest, I do not see any _major_ 2-d panel capabilities in FS X that are not also in X-Plane. Both are based on compositing of 2-d bitmaps, with animations driven by third party code or core sim variables.There may be some built in default instruments in FS X that X-Plane does not have - I do not know. But is it possible to make a really beautiful 2-d cockpit? I am not sure what you would be stopped from doing in X-Plane that you can do in FS X.(And of course, if someone tells me: "well, we can do this trick", I am going to think carefully about whether that trick should be in X-Plane too...)The cockpit and panel system for version 9 has evolved a lot from version 8 (the upcoming 930 patch will add even more functionality). My hope for this thread (and it's not really up to me, it's not my forum, it's not my topic, etc.) is that the discussion will be data driven, so that I can evaluate any gaps in capability that X-Plane has.Now if the issue is: PMDG doesn't make airplanes for X-Plane -- well, that's another story. If the feature you like about MSFS is that there are a ton of third party add-ons, well, it is what it is.But having worked on the capabilities of X-Plane as a platform, I hope we can be clear on where there are differences in availability vs. differences in capability.cheersben

Strange as it may seem, while many others are truly convinced that X-Plane's fluid movement across the landscape, is the closest to flying that they've witnessed on a monitor yet...........I feel the exact opposite; and I've had the same non- feeling for years. Simply put, I just don't experience "feel". It's my main hangup about X-Plane. My mind is not filling in gaps to create a virtual reality of actually being there. The joystick pitch is so linear between pitching movements of the plane, that I find it hard to sense differences in light airplanes versus the heavy's. It appears fluid alright; but not like I'm riding on a wing, on a column of air. It's more like a vacuum. I don't like this sensation, and find it annoying. I'm not sensing mass, inertia, dampening, or power to weight. Most X-Plane flights for me, are on auto-pilot.....................as I sometimes enjoy the global scenery of the Mt. West. Somehow, the sim core is going to have to change in regards to "feel", before I can get more excited.And FWIW, I've simmed since the invention on a desktop PC. I've flown small 2" RC sticks to.... just think it....and it does it ..... in the real Pitts S2B. So it's not a matter of joystick settings, as I've moved them all over the place. I have no problem in adapting to any size joystick, and certainly don't need force feedback. I never over control either. Everything is "smooth"; even in X-Plane, once I eliminate the default "wiggle" that simulates turbulence, I guess.L.Adamson

The joystick pitch is so linear between pitching movements of the plane, that I find it hard to sense differences in light airplanes versus the heavy's.

I will ask you the same thing I asked a while back in a previous discussion on x-plane.org about joysticks and control and feel:- Where in the pipeline do MSFS and X-Plane handle the connection from physical joystick to actual plane movement differently?There are only a few possible places...- Both sims are reading the same raw hardware joystick deflection.- Both sims may apply some processing (or not) to create a different deflection. (In X-Plane this happens if you tweak the null zone and other such joystick settings -- I do not know what MSFS does to joystick inputs.)- Both sims then turn that joystick deflection into a control deflection. Is it the same amount of control deflection?- That control deflection then turns the airplane? By the same amount?In otherwords, if there is a difference in "feel" in the sims, I would like to know whether it is in joystick processing, control deflection, or the flight model.(I am assuming that it is _not_ in the visualization of the airplane's turning, since both sims draw the world in 3-d based on a camera inside the cockpit...)cheersBen

I will ask you the same thing I asked a while back in a previous discussion on x-plane.org about joysticks and control and feel:- Where in the pipeline do MSFS and X-Plane handle the connection from physical joystick to actual plane movement differently?There are only a few possible places...- Both sims are reading the same raw hardware joystick deflection.- Both sims may apply some processing (or not) to create a different deflection. (In X-Plane this happens if you tweak the null zone and other such joystick settings -- I do not know what MSFS does to joystick inputs.)- Both sims then turn that joystick deflection into a control deflection. Is it the same amount of control deflection?- That control deflection then turns the airplane? By the same amount?In otherwords, if there is a difference in "feel" in the sims, I would like to know whether it is in joystick processing, control deflection, or the flight model.(I am assuming that it is _not_ in the visualization of the airplane's turning, since both sims draw the world in 3-d based on a camera inside the cockpit...)cheersBen

Ben,Somehow, it has to be in the timing, delayed timing........? I don't know, as I'm not a programmer. For instance, several years ago, an excellent STOL aircraft was released for FS9. You could litterly sense the deceleration when applying the flap sequence. I often use the example of being at a stop light in your car, while the vehicle on the side moves slightly ahead. You slam on the brakes, believing that your coasting backwards. You "felt" it, but it was only a sight picture; and the mind provided the sense of movement. It's the same with flight simming, since we only have a visual picture on the monitor & a bit of resistance from the centering spring. All I know, is that since I do fly real aircraft rather frequently as the "guy" in charge of the controls, is that my mind has the proper and realistic sensations of "feel", to fill in the gaps. That's why I'm not hot on force feedback.L.Adamson

Somehow, it has to be in the timing, delayed timing........? I don't know, as I'm not a programmer. For instance, several years ago, an excellent STOL aircraft was released for FS9. You could litterly sense the deceleration when applying the flap sequence.

I was hoping you could observe the control deflections of both sims with both weights of plane and compare the response to the control deflection to your own control inputs...if the heavy plane feels heavy in FS X but not X-Plane, for the same control deflection, I would expect you to see something...like...- Not as much control deflection in FS X or- As much control deflection, but it takes longer for the plane to actually change what it's doing given the same control deflection.cheersBen

I feel the exact opposite; and I've had the same non- feeling for years. Simply put, I just don't experience "feel". It's my main hangup about X-Plane. My mind is not filling in gaps to create a virtual reality of actually being there. The joystick pitch is so linear between pitching movements of the plane, that I find it hard to sense differences in light airplanes versus the heavy's. It appears fluid alright; but not like I'm riding on a wing, on a column of air. It's more like a vacuum. I don't like this sensation, and find it annoying. I'm not sensing mass, inertia, dampening, or power to weight. Most X-Plane flights for me, are on auto-pilot.....................as I sometimes enjoy the global scenery of the Mt. West. Somehow, the sim core is going to have to change in regards to "feel", before I can get more excited.And FWIW, I've simmed since the invention on a desktop PC. I've flown small 2" RC sticks to.... just think it....and it does it ..... in the real Pitts S2B. So it's not a matter of joystick settings, as I've moved them all over the place. I have no problem in adapting to any size joystick, and certainly don't need force feedback. I never over control either. Everything is "smooth"; even in X-Plane, once I eliminate the default "wiggle" that simulates turbulence, I guess.L.Adamson

I don't think Ben ever mentioned flight model in his first reply, he was talking about panels, but nevertheless.As I already said, X-Plane over-sensitivity, or at least part of it, _could_ be due to differences in which MSFS and X-Plane manage control inputs.I know for sure MSFS airfiles have usually limited control authority: try to set full trim down in the default Cessna and you'll realize that you can't stall the airplane, even at low speed. Is it the only trick MSFS uses to decrease the sensitivity? I don't know.Imagine flying a real C172 with a yoke without feedback and with halved full travel: don't you think it would feel much more sensitive? There's a good reason why aviation authorities impose that every aircraft must have a minimum level of control-force per g-load.On the other hand, X-Plane over-sensitivity, or at least part of it, _could_ be due to deficiencies in flight model. Until now, nobody has verified which of these hypotheses is right. I think a combination of the two.Again, as I already said, moot point until Austin either changes flight model (second case) or the way X-Plane manages control inputs (first case).Marco

I was hoping you could observe the control deflections of both sims with both weights of plane and compare the response to the control deflection to your own control inputs...if the heavy plane feels heavy in FS X but not X-Plane, for the same control deflection, I would expect you to see something...like...- Not as much control deflection in FS X or- As much control deflection, but it takes longer for the plane to actually change what it's doing given the same control deflection.cheersBen

At the moment, I can't observe anything. My "simming" CPU decided to have troubles last month. I'm now using my previous system. Some day, I'll get around to having it looked at.L.Adamson