PMDG BAe JetStream 4100 Product overview

[MOFF 1]

Thats correct. VC is good if you only use single monitor (which is probably the majority of users), but there are still users with multiple monitors, who have a separate visual and instrument displays. Thats why 2D panel is not entirely history yet. Lots of people still need it. Another thing is that with complex aircraft with FMS etc. it can sometimes be difficult in VC, to start programming the FMC and clicking all those switches, especially if you want to hand fly at the same time. It would surely be nice to know that at least the new version of NG will still have 2D panels.

Hi,as long as the FMC is a clickable window in 3D, you can drag and drop it to another screen. Precondition is, that the FMC is to open as a window as in MD11 or 737 bny PMDG. May be that other parts are clickable windows as well. So the 3D and the multiple screens making sense as ever. Nearly.. :( BestSteffen Rabenau

[ExNusquam 11]

I presume not many of you guys who have concerns about there being no 2d panels have ever seen any of the RealAir aircraft. If you have seen the cockpit on the Spitfire for example you would see that you can simulate a 2d panel view by moving the view point/camera to a position directly in front of and square on to the area of the panel that's of interest. You can select these simulated 2d panel views with keyboard short-cuts if you wish. It's no where near as bad as you guys think, CHILL OUT you'll love it I'm sure. :(

I have the RealAir Scout 2006 package, and I agree, it is nice to have to pop ups, but none of RealAir's aircraft are IFR per se; They all could be IFR, but doubt there are many people barreling through the sky in Citabrias on an ILS approach into LAX, where having a 2D is very nice to have, as everything is right in front of you and you don't need to wory about popups or panning off of the primary flight intruments.

[Guest Buzz313th]

Couple of trends here that people seem to be ignoring.1. The top 3 developers for addon aircraft for FSX (Including PMDG) are slowly switching to VC cockpits only. 2. Track IR has become a standard piece of Flight Sim Hardware for the true sim enthusiast. IMHO, for 130 USD, it raises the sim experience 200%. This small cost compared to the amount gained will be the most important addon for your FS rig. Head Tracking hardware allows for a visual situational awareness that is impossible in an affordable sim rig, unless you have spent the time and money on a rig setup to include a 5 monitor settup which would allow for greater than 110 degrees FOV to the right and the left. I used to have a 3 monitor setup and after getting track IR, sold the 3x21" inch monitors for 1x26" monitor. My next experiment will be to try a touch screen LOL.3. I remember back in the FS2002 days. Microsoft started marketing FS2004 and one of the key points was the slow switch from 2d cockpits to 3d cockpits. They told us back then, that 2d cockpits would soon be a thing of the past.4. Ask any Track IR user... Would you switch back to 2D? The answer will be, "Hell No, it is the best piece of hardware I own for my FS Rig".I believe the FSX SDK gives more options and abilities with less limitations to the 3D pit than the 2d pit without the extra hit on performance while running 2 versions of the redundant gauge.PMDG addons are not the, "Run Of The Mill" addons, and because of this, they are not inexpensive in comparison to the other addons out there. PMDG's addons take a step foreward in each product, pushing the envelope of the FS platform further than other developers. If you plan on using PMDG's stuff, then be prepared to have a FS rig that is up to PMDG's standards.I have purchased PMDG's 74, the MD and the 1900C. A Track IR is less money than the sum of the MD and the 74 and IMHO, more important to my simming experience.JB

[ahaka 0]

The reason I, and many others have separate ultra-wide visuals is that we could have a big view of the world, more close to that of a real airplane. Just imagine, 3 monitors acting as "windows" of the cockpit, and 1 monitor for the instrument panel below them. This just wont work with a VC only airplane, since VC forces you to contantly change the eyepoint from looking down, looking forward, looking down again... and so on. Very impractical for manual flying. If you change the view so that VC shows both the instruments AND the outside view, the whole idea of a separate visual is gone since the instruments will block a large part of the view. As beautiful as the VC of this plane is, its no use for me without a functioning 2D panel. Ok, its not a disaster for me if I have to skip buying this plane, but if this is also the trend for all future products, then it is a disaster, lol.Anyway, I undestand that PMDG cant make their design desicions based on requests from some marginal group that have wide visuals and instrument panels below them, but its a personal loss for us that we now grief in these forums ;) I have also read disappointed comments about the missing 2D panel in a Nordic flightforum in my own language, so I'm not the only one.

[Andydigital 93]

They also have to take the step forward and make these aircraft work with external hardware like EFIS and MCP's panels more easily as well then, so an SDK is actually becoming much more of a must now in my opinion.

[some1 65]

4. Ask any Track IR user... Would you switch back to 2D? The answer will be, "Hell No, it is the best piece of hardware I own for my FS Rig".JB

Agreed.I never use 2D cockpit. But 2D popup windows are useful, especially for FMC and radio stack. Predefined 3D close-up's are not the perfect solution, because you can't open them in a secondary view without creating another 3D window, and this dramatically reduces the performance. The way it works in MD-11 (click on a screen to display 2D popup) is very convenient to me.I think the main reason why PMDG won't make complete 2D cockpit here is because analog gauges and all switches are already made in 3D. It's relatively easy to reuse 2D gauges (digital or analog, it doesn't matter) from 2D panel in VC, but such VC will look flat, like Level-D 767. VC with many parts already in 3D like we see here looks and works great, but it's not easy to make a 2D cockpit based on that, which means extra work, time and money to do it.

[Guest Buzz313th]

Agreed.I never use 2D cockpit. But 2D popup windows are useful, especially for FMC and radio stack. Predefined 3D close-up's are not the perfect solution, because you can't open them in a secondary view without creating another 3D window, and this dramatically reduces the performance. The way it works in MD-11 (click on a screen to display 2D popup) is very convenient to me.I think the main reason why PMDG won't make complete 2D cockpit here is because analog gauges and all switches are already made in 3D. It's relatively easy to reuse 2D gauges (digital or analog, it doesn't matter) from 2D panel in VC, but such VC will look flat, like Level-D 767. VC with many parts already in 3D like we see here looks and works great, but it's not easy to make a 2D cockpit based on that, which means extra work, time and money to do it.

I agree with you that the popup 2d's are usefull. I felt they were necessary when I was running a 21" monitor. Like I said, I am now a happy owner of a 26" LCD placed 3 feet in front of me running 1920x1200 with TrackIR. Since the switch to the large screen I never use the popups anymore and stay entirely in the VC. This is only acceptable now since the knobs and displays are roughly 50% to 90% the relative visual size of what they would be if I was actually sitting in the flight deck of the real aircraft. I know some may say, well I can't afford a new monitor. Well I found this one on a weekend special at Fry's electronics for 169 USD. Also, switching from 3 monitors running at 1280x1024 to one running at 1920x1200 increased performance a minimum of 20% and reduced CPU and GPU load as well. I am happy with my downgrade or upgrade, however you look at it.JB

[Tom_s 0]

... in the german simflight forum its rumored, that robert will visit the german "Flusi" Conference in September with his own Jet... ??? :(

[procyon 1]

>> Anyway, I undestand that PMDG cant make their design desicions based on requests from some marginal group that have wide visuals and instrument panels below them, but its a personal loss for us that we now grief in these forums ;) I have also read disappointed comments about the missing 2D panel in a Nordic flightforum in my own language, so I'm not the only one. <<I strongly believe there are loads of users with multi-monitor setups as described - and this is not "history yet", but for sure one of the groups which invest significant money into their FS environment. For good reasons: they might call this setup a better and more tangible way to simulate, with enhancements like supporting hardware, less keyboard and mouse-clicks etc.So it's a twofold simulation world, both worlds have their pro's and respective enthusiasts. I hope PMDG and all the others will continue to offer products for both approaches.RegardsTorsten

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

Tom-Arriving in germany in my own jet?!?!?!? Thats a pretty wild fantasy from the sounds of it.I won't be in Germany in September, after all- the US National Air Races are run that month- so my schedule is already pretty packed. :-p(Oh- yeah- and i don't own a jet... That kinda plays a role too....)Torsten-We will continue to offer 2D's in airliner simulations. We won't be offering them in our commuter series, however.

[curt1 79]

You guys really have to see this panel in motion before you understand why the lack of 2D isn't a big deal... Virtually everything is a 3D object that moves through animation in the model, it's not like any of our previous VCs. The texture resolution is also orders of magnitude higher than anything I've ever seen in FS too.

Ryan, the VC textures of the RealAir SF 260 are the best I've owned to date. Just to clarify, your J41 has now surpassed what they accomplished with that addon? If so, then bad economy or not, this will be a must buy! :( Curt

[JC75 22]

VC only isnt an issue with me, I use the levelD767 with the VC on a TH2GO across 3 22inch monitors, and it is amazing. However having some pop up panels is still useful, such as FMC, Overhead etc, as these can be dragged to my 4th monitor which is above my other 3. Also the FMC gets displayed on my CDU from opencockpits.However I notice there is no mention of an SDK to interface to hardware, I know there is less hardware support for this particular aircraft, but hope this isnt a trend that will be kept for the upcoming NGX. The level of detail in this Aircrafts VC is totally amazing, and so is the level of systems simulated. But PMDG need to allow their sims to become totally a Simulator by releasing an SDK with their A/C to allow cockpit builders or home users who want to use hardware an easy option, not silly drivers. It makes using the VC a whole better experience, as less "panning" or clicking is needed if you can control these functions from the hardware, like a MCP/EFIS/FMC etc or any home built buttons and switches. Using the LevelD 767 with all my hardware in the VC is a total dream and makes for a realistic experiece along with track IR. If PMDG could make the NG to the standard of this Jetstream, with an SDK for hardware support, I'd finally stop flying my 767....well until the 757 comes out anyway!Well done PMDG, a great looking JS41RegardsJames

[Cuddly1956 1]

Personally I'd like a choice of 2d/3d panel being a almost exclusive 2d panel flyer, but I look on it as a step to take. Ok, I might not like it but I reckon, like anything, I'll get used to VC panels. No use having the facility and not even trying it.Only because I worry about zooming in and out and moving across the cockpit, but willing to learn so bring it on lol.As long as the tutorial is up to the usual standard (sure it will be) I'll soon get the hang of it, or be hung.p.s. Hope the seat covers last a bit longer than the MD-11 ones... mine are getting fluffless lol.John Ellison

[Gumps 0]

We will continue to offer 2D's in airliner simulations. We won't be offering them in our commuter series, however.

RobertYou made my day! So the 737NGX and subsequent airliners will have 2D panels. Whew! From this thread, it seems that there may be a significant number of folks that use 2D panels, for whatever reason. So while I wish the J41 came with 2D as well, I can understand that this must just be part of the 'express' decision. So be it. I may by it anyway.Now, and ever so respectfully, please flog the troops working on the 737NGX. "Faster, Faster, Faster."Noel WBrisbane

[Houghton11 12]

- Accurate model of the geared, garrett turboprop power plant. These engines are managed VERY differently than the free-turbine engines most of you are used to. We'll have some classes here after release so we can keep you from burning up your new engines on the first flight.

Sorry, I may be a bit oblivious, but what are the differences one can expect in Garret engines? I must admit, working as a lacky for a company that operates Dash's exclusively, and being a good Canadian, I've been pretty intolerant of aircraft not powered by a PT6 or a PW100-ish variant ;).The only geared turbine I've had the pleasure to see the operation of in person has been a couple trips on a PC-12, which is a Pratt engine anyways :).I noticed the aircraft has a condition lever, much like the Dash's. Does it operate in a similar way? Is the pitch/prop speed adjustable with the condition lever? Or is it some fancy ECU thinger like the ATR? (which BTW also uses Pratts :( )One more question. Does this operate in FS throttle-wise similar to the Majestic Dash-8? IE: full back on your throttle quadrant/slider/joystick is actually full reverse, not ground/flight idle? This would make the engine management much more realistic, which now having read a bit of the manual (see edit below), seems necessary since the manuals talking about moving the throttle past ground idle to release start locks, dropping it into reverse a bit during shut-down...etc.I haven't really done much research on this aircraft, but I was hoping someone could just give a quick run-down on the significant differences between the operation of a geared-turbine like the Garret and something like the PW's on the Dash's.I'm eagerly awaiting this aircraft, even though not having the fanciest computer in the world, i'm a little worried about the VC impact. Judging by all the optimization and in-house development of these new VC technologies it sounds like it won't be any worse than any other VC though.Looking forward to it as usual PMDG though! I'll probably be using it though as a stand-in on some J31 routes though ;).Patrick HEDIT:Just got my hands on an J41 manual (Ahh Smartcockpit), and i'm quite surprised...different engine types for each side? Counter rotating props? Holy smokes I imagine this has been a slight pain to model in FS.