The UK Civil Aviation Authority has publish average salaries for aircrew and cabin staff.http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle6466748.ecePilots average salaries range from

Pilots average salaries range from

What's the tax rate for someone in the UK based on a 100,000 pound salary? What's the cost of living in London?High and high on both counts.Salaries need to be judged in context.As for the state of the pilot profession.... piloting is a skilled labor, hourly paid job. It's a job basically anyone with an average intelligence and hand-eye coordination can be trained to do. With the exception of military aviation (which is a different ball game), it requires no real formal education or any real special, hard to find aptitude or mindset (unlike being an ATC). $20,000 USD is totally fine for a FO. The FO is just the FO. He's not the PIC. Capt's salaries at US Regionals, they're fair in my view.

Where does the huge amount of $$ that is invested getting the initial training figure into this FO $20,000 USD salary? I don't know many professions where you have to invest a huge amount into the education, that then pay this poorly. The average bus driver salary in the US is $18,000. Although both are responsible for lives, one certainly requires much more training, expense, and education.At least in the US-a college degree is also pretty much needed for an airline aviator-add the above cost of training also. Not needed as far as I know for the bus driver. Yet they both pay about the same?I know-my daughter completed her primary/instrument and 3/4's of her commercial and 3rd year of a major aviation college(we were well past the $100k ivestment point at the third year)-then realized the pay was so low that she and most of her friends in the program switched to other fields. I just read now that her school which is/was one of the biggest aviation schools in the US is pretty much reducing to nothing/shutting down the aviation program now-everyone has figured out the sad situation and is bailing. As I advised her when the airlines started paying so poorly-why not go into a field where you can make a lot of money and afford to own your own airplane and have complete freedom how you fly, instead of working for one that pays what in the US is considered welfare level, has horrible job security, and fly the same boring haul every day?The trend of her flight school going down-shows many have figured this out. Where does this leave the talent pool for the future? It used to be very competitive and difficult to get an airline job. Now we have reports which I heard yesterday that many of the captains of regionals fail their flight checks on a regular basis. FO's no matter how well trained can be hired with flight time that is woeful and no experience. If there is one thing I have learned in life-you get what you pay for (except in the FS world where imho you get more than you pay for). The industry is really counting on automation and computers to do the flying. Even those that have stick and rudder skills, and experience, have to go elsewhere to keep up their flying skills (e.g. the ones I know fly GA aircraft in their spare time to keep their skills up).Look at all the crashes in the past years-other than Sully's which was a pilot from another generation/ time/training (and read what he has to say about the situation today) it appears now most crashes are not being caused by mechanical reasons, but pilot reasons (e.g. Comair in Lexington, Amsterdam, Buffalo etc.) . I think the situation is deplorable. I don't get nervous when I fly my plane-but I do on commercials-especially regionals.

Where does the huge amount of $$ that is invested getting the initial training figure into this FO $20,000 USD salary? I don't know many professions where you have to invest a huge amount into the education, that then pay this poorly. The average bus driver salary in the US is $18,000. Although both are responsible for lives, one certainly requires much more training, expense, and education.At least in the US-a college degree is also pretty much needed for an airline aviator-add the above cost of training also. Not needed as far as I know for the bus driver. Yet they both pay about the same?I know-my daughter completed her primary/instrument and 3/4's of her commercial and 3rd year of a major aviation college(we were well past the $100k ivestment point at the third year)-then realized the pay was so low that she and most of her friends in the program switched to other fields. I just read now that her school which is/was one of the biggest aviation schools in the US is pretty much reducing to nothing/shutting down the aviation program now-everyone has figured out the sad situation and is bailing. As I advised her when the airlines started paying so poorly-why not go into a field where you can make a lot of money and afford to own your own airplane and have complete freedom how you fly, instead of working for one that pays what in the US is considered welfare level, has horrible job security, and fly the same boring haul every day?The trend of her flight school going down-shows many have figured this out. Where does this leave the talent pool for the future? It used to be very competitive and difficult to get an airline job. Now we have reports which I heard yesterday that many of the captains of regionals fail their flight checks on a regular basis. FO's no matter how well trained can be hired with flight time that is woeful and no experience. If there is one thing I have learned in life-you get what you pay for (except in the FS world where imho you get more than you pay for). The industry is really counting on automation and computers to do the flying. Even those that have stick and rudder skills, and experience, have to go elsewhere to keep up their flying skills (e.g. the ones I know fly GA aircraft in their spare time to keep their skills up).Look at all the crashes in the past years-other than Sully's which was a pilot from another generation/ time/training (and read what he has to say about the situation today) it appears now most crashes are not being caused by mechanical reasons, but pilot reasons (e.g. Comair in Lexington, Amsterdam, Buffalo etc.) . I think the situation is deplorable. I don't get nervous when I fly my plane-but I do on commercials-especially regionals.

Well, to play devil's advocate, to be a pilot does not require education per se. It requires training. Training and education aren't really the same thing. The US and some Asian countries are probably the only ones in the world that requires a BA/BS to be an airline pilot, and this is because most pilots in the past were military officers, and to be an officer in the US you had to have a BA/BS degree or above. So there is some tradition at play there.Tell your daughter to go military. Have the taxpayers foot the bill for her to have the chance to convert fuel to noise.As for the $20,000 FO salary and why: Pure supply and demand.

Well, to play devil's advocate, to be a pilot does not require education per se. It requires training. Training and education aren't really the same thing. The US and some Asian countries are probably the only ones in the world that requires a BA/BS to be an airline pilot, and this is because most pilots in the past were military officers, and to be an officer in the US you had to have a BA/BS degree or above. So there is some tradition at play there.Tell your daughter to go military. Have the taxpayers foot the bill for her to have the chance to convert fuel to noise.As for the $20,000 FO salary and why: Pure supply and demand.

Knowledge of aerodymamics, systems, weather, and regs I would call education. Motor skills I would call training. I would expect a pilot to have the education part also.My daughter is going into atc hopefully (and her school is also making a transition from aviation to the atc program). You might want to google what salary they start at and how long and how much their training is.Seems odd doesn't it?!

$8.00 in titleJust watched CNN report on Gulfstream Air whose aircraft crashed in Buffalo. While pilot error seems to be the cause the wage scales of these people are shocking.A co-pilot with this airline receives base pay of $8.00 per hourA captain starts at $20.00 per hourNew pilot applicants at Gulfstream must have the usual ratings and 250 filght hours.They receive 3 months of Gulfstream training for which THEY pay $30,000Either CNN is wayy off base,or I can't hear and see on-screen graphics. This outfit does the regional flights for Continental with repainted aircraft. I would not ever board an aircraft driven by people qualifed and payed in this manner. No wonder the co-pilot of the doomed flight had to live with her parents in Seattle!http://gulfstreamair.com/

Gulfstream Air is an academy/airline connection carrier for CO and runs mainly in Florida. The aircraft that crashed in Buffalo was NOT a Gulfstream Air plane, but a Colgan Air plane. Gulfstream used to have EMB-120's in it's fleet, but has primarily gone to B1900's entirely now, while Colgan flies a mix of SF340's and Dash 8's.

Well, to play devil's advocate, to be a pilot does not require education per se. It requires training. Training and education aren't really the same thing. The US and some Asian countries are probably the only ones in the world that requires a BA/BS to be an airline pilot, and this is because most pilots in the past were military officers, and to be an officer in the US you had to have a BA/BS degree or above. So there is some tradition at play there.Tell your daughter to go military. Have the taxpayers foot the bill for her to have the chance to convert fuel to noise.As for the $20,000 FO salary and why: Pure supply and demand.

Your 100% right... There are two reasons why pilot pay is so bad these days... 1. The Regionals and the majors pay what they can get away with. If there weren't breathing human beings taking those jobs, then the pay would go up. The problem is that there are more people with the Shiny Jet Syndrome than we care to believe.2. The majority of the pilots have lost the ability to organise and strike like they used to. The Carriers and the Unions have made the pilot what they are today, just a labor force.Most of the smart pilots went to express cargo carriers after they saw the light in 2001. Places like FedEx, UPS and DHL is really where the future of the professional pilot lies.There was a point in my aviation career where I had a choice to make a drastic change and leave the right seat for a regional and goto the engineers seat for a foreign airline in 727's. If I had made that change, then I would most definately be flying for FedEX now and making a comfortable living. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I left professional aviation all together to come back to my old job. Now I am tickled pink to fly a few hours a week on average renting, the local Zlins, Pitts and Decathalons outa Van Nuys.JB

"The Carriers and the Unions have made the pilot what they are today, just a labor force." Wrong! A Greedy Corporate industry,lobbying a corrupt Government, and the Railway labor Act lowered the airline workers standard of living,and political power. I would also guess that if you were in the back of that Q400 with the other screaming souls,You wouldn't be defending the company on there right to be greedy. People have short memory's, Remember that it was unions that lobbied and protected us against 7 day work weeks,child labor,unsafe work practices,etc. Our system needs that check,and balance or the powers that be would make slaves of us all.

Knowledge of aerodymamics, systems, weather, and regs I would call education. Motor skills I would call training. I would expect a pilot to have the education part also.My daughter is going into atc hopefully (and her school is also making a transition from aviation to the atc program). You might want to google what salary they start at and how long and how much their training is.Seems odd doesn't it?!

Semantics on the education versus training/instruction/indoctrination part.Odd on the salaries? Not really...ATC salaries are higher because of supply and demand (not many people dream about being an ATC compared to being a pilot).... Being an ATC requires a unique, hard to find personality and a special kind of mind (not many people can do the job of an ATC, whereas being a pilot is something almost anyone with an interest can be trained to do)... Washout rates in ATC training are high, whereas to be a pilot if you fail the test you just do over it again until you pass (at least in civil aviation). ... ATC workers are often government workers with strong unions... I could think of more, but I'm too groggy to type more!

Semantics on the education versus training/instruction/indoctrination part.Odd on the salaries? Not really...ATC salaries are higher because of supply and demand (not many people dream about being an ATC compared to being a pilot).... Being an ATC requires a unique, hard to find personality and a special kind of mind (not many people can do the job of an ATC, whereas being a pilot is something almost anyone with an interest can be trained to do)... Washout rates in ATC training are high, whereas to be a pilot if you fail the test you just do over it again until you pass (at least in civil aviation). ... ATC workers are often government workers with strong unions... I could think of more, but I'm too groggy to type more!

Yes-that is the fact. As for semantics-I want a well educated person who understands aerodynamics and systems extremely well flying my plane-period. That usually requires an education-not training. As for personality since most controllers I know are also pilots there must be something very much in common.

"The Carriers and the Unions have made the pilot what they are today, just a labor force." Wrong!

I agree with you on the Corruption both in the corporate and government sectors, but you have to admit it was the pilot unions that took the concessions after 911 because they believed the BS coming from the carriers that they were gonna loose there asses cause of loss of revenue. If the Airlines, both regional and major carriers didn't bite off way more than they could chew prior 911, then they probably wouldn't be in sucha mess right now. Years post 911 and the concessions still hold to this day and many pilots post 911 were told, if you don't like it, then leave. JB

Yes-that is the fact. As for semantics-I want a well educated person who understands aerodynamics and systems extremely well flying my plane-period. That usually requires an education-not training. As for personality since most controllers I know are also pilots there must be something very much in common.

Yeah, I'd still classify systems knowledge as vocational training. When I think of 'education', I tend to think liberal arts or the pure sciences, writing essays and critical analysis, learning to think independently, learning to doubt. You know, all the fluffy stuff that won't get you a job :( When my family is in the plane, I want an experienced and well trained guy in the left seat. I could care less if he can quote T.S. Eliot and write a critical essay about the malaise of modernity.The commonality between an ATC and pilot is a interest / passion for aviation. You're right, a lot of ATC are ex-pilots who got sick of the B.S. and who needed a stable, real income to support their families.But a lot of pilots who try to become ATC don't make the cut... as mentioned, being an ATC requires a special kind of mind. Few people can do it.

[The commonality between an ATC and pilot is a interest / passion for aviation. You're right, a lot of ATC are ex-pilots who got sick of the B.S. and who needed a stable, real income to support their families.But a lot of pilots who try to become ATC don't make the cut... as mentioned, being an ATC requires a special kind of mind. Few people can do it.The difference is all the atc pilots seem to be able to afford their own planes! :-)

"The Carriers and the Unions have made the pilot what they are today, just a labor force." Wrong! ---

Completely agree with everything you said. Do you ever go to APC?Also, great picture! Saved for future use, hahaha.