I've notice this for awhile now but never had the time to research it. I'm finding rogue AI that appear sporadically throughout OZ that appear to operate outside of ATC control. It seems it's only an Airliner issue as I've not seen this with GA AI. One scenario is I'll see ATC clear an AI airliner for take off at the same time a rogue AI airliner appears to have landing way before the runway threshold and rolls right through the blast fence right through the cleared AI and then slows down/stops for taxi to the terminal. The cleared AI just rolls down the runway as if the other plane on the runway didn't exist, rolls though the rough AI and completes a successful takeoff (ATC normally stops AI from hitting each other especially for landing and takeoff operations). Imagine this at KMDW a plane rolling right through the blast fence as if it landed in a neighborhood outside of the airport grounds with Knight Rider ability and roles right through to the runway. Another thing I've noticed is rogue AI coming in for a landing not properly lined up with the runway and before they can get over the runway falls out of the sky and disappears. Sometimes ATC see's these planes and holds aircraft for take off. It's interesting because ATC continues business as usually when the plane crashes from view (which in the confines of OZ makes since but I'd hate to see something like this in the real world). Another scenario is I'm cleared for takeoff and just before I taxi onto the runway an AI plane blasts through the blast fence right in front of me landing like I mentioned above well before the runway. I have to stop and wait for this AI to get off the runway before I can takeoff (this happens allot at KBUR on my setup). ATC usually sees (not all the time) the planes airborne who can't quite make it to the runway and crash. The ones ATC doesn't see is those bullets that land well before the runway and blast right through the fence in the most inconvenient times (like when I'm cleared to taxi onto the active for takeoff).AI programs I'm using are Flight1's Ultimate Traffic, World of AI, and GA Traffic. Like I stated above GA traffic don't have this problem (on my setup Harvey Muni in Washington is busy and I never see this). I'm only seeing this with airliners. I believe I was having this issue when I was only using UTraffic so I figured it can't be because of the combo of UT/WOAI... This is not a huge problem but more so a nuisance. There's nothing like seeing an airliner coming in for landing looking like it's having trouble only to crash right before it get's over the runway. Other AI turn and nose dive right over the runway, it depends on the airport. I checked and I don't have overlapping AI flying the same routes or double Airlines from both UT and WOAI active at the same time. This has always been one of those weird issues I never got around to addressing.... Thanks in advance to anyone who knows what the heck is going on...

I've notice this for awhile now but never had the time to research it. I'm finding rogue AI that appear sporadically throughout OZ that appear to operate outside of ATC control. It seems it's only an Airliner issue as I've not seen this with GA AI. One scenario is I'll see ATC clear an AI airliner for take off at the same time a rogue AI airliner appears to have landing way before the runway threshold and rolls right through the blast fence right through the cleared AI and then slows down/stops for taxi to the terminal. The cleared AI just rolls down the runway as if the other plane on the runway didn't exist, rolls though the rough AI and completes a successful takeoff (ATC normally stops AI from hitting each other especially for landing and takeoff operations). Imagine this at KMDW a plane rolling right through the blast fence as if it landed in a neighborhood outside of the airport grounds with Knight Rider ability and roles right through to the runway. Another thing I've noticed is rogue AI coming in for a landing not properly lined up with the runway and before they can get over the runway falls out of the sky and disappears. Sometimes ATC see's these planes and holds aircraft for take off. It's interesting because ATC continues business as usually when the plane crashes from view (which in the confines of OZ makes since but I'd hate to see something like this in the real world). Another scenario is I'm cleared for takeoff and just before I taxi onto the runway an AI plane blasts through the blast fence right in front of me landing like I mentioned above well before the runway. I have to stop and wait for this AI to get off the runway before I can takeoff (this happens allot at KBUR on my setup). ATC usually sees (not all the time) the planes airborne who can't quite make it to the runway and crash. The ones ATC doesn't see is those bullets that land well before the runway and blast right through the fence in the most inconvenient times (like when I'm cleared to taxi onto the active for takeoff).AI programs I'm using are Flight1's Ultimate Traffic, World of AI, and GA Traffic. Like I stated above GA traffic don't have this problem (on my setup Harvey Muni in Washington is busy and I never see this). I'm only seeing this with airliners. I believe I was having this issue when I was only using UTraffic so I figured it can't be because of the combo of UT/WOAI... This is not a huge problem but more so a nuisance. There's nothing like seeing an airliner coming in for landing looking like it's having trouble only to crash right before it get's over the runway. Other AI turn and nose dive right over the runway, it depends on the airport. I checked and I don't have overlapping AI flying the same routes or double Airlines from both UT and WOAI active at the same time. This has always been one of those weird issues I never got around to addressing.... Thanks in advance to anyone who knows what the heck is going on...

What you are noticing usually (or frequently) happens when you have just started the sim. It happens because the AI aircraft are 'spawned' or appear in the 40 mile ATC radius. For the GA aircraft the isn't a problem - low altitude, low speed - however the AI commercial jets are a different matter, some may still be at cruise altitude and in an attempt to approach the airport (any) will perform kamikaze dives at the airport or the general area. Some will pull out just enough to survive but land well short of the runway and continue as if they are rolling in. Since they were not cleared to land yet by ATC other runway ops continue and ignore them until they exit the runway and request taxi/parking. And also note some AI planes and Airports in combination will produce this more often. In summation, you don't have a problem, it's a Flight Sim thing! Normally this won't occur after the sim has been running for 5 to maybe 15 minutes. I hope you find this reassuring. BTW please search around. I have read alot more comprehensive explanations than mine. Mel

So we all can agree this is pretty normal on everyone's machines??? :(

So we all can agree this is pretty normal on everyone's machines??? :(

Nope, I have never experienced this, nor even heard of it.The only time I have seen behaviour anything like this it was at an add-on airport in France. It took me a long time to figure out that it was a FS2000 scenery (i.e. pre-AI) which although it (remarkably) ran nicely in FS2004, had some animated aircraft landing and taking off. It was just a case of weeding out the file that ran those animations and all was fine.You say you are experiencing this in Australia - is it at specific airports, and are those airports with add-on sceneries? First thing I would experiment with would be to disable those sceneries and watch what happens.Also, it could be productive to check the AI flight plans you use all share the same co-ordinates and elevations, and that they match the airport as declared by AFCAD. An elevation substantially lower than the airport really is would be enough to cause traffic to start the approach too early and thus touch down short of the runway.Another thing that could cause what you are seeing is two airports with different ICAOs at the same location, but I can't think of any Australian airports that have been re-coded - unlike Indonesia! Duplicate AFCADs with the same ICAO but different co-ordinates usually cause FS to crash, but it would be worth checking and eliminating unused AFD files.Hope this helps,John

I think Mel has it right. I see this kind of behaviour all the time when I run AI at or near 100%. You've got a lot of AI programs running at the same time and it's likely you've got many duplicate flights. ATC just cannot cope with duplicates. I suggest you use a program called SCANAFD to check for these. Get it at http://www.nwlink.com/~erog/ - free download.Otherwise you can reduce AI density or allow 15 min for spawned traffic to clear, or both. RegardsJohn

Yep! I agree. I have AI problems all the time when 1st starting FS. Aircraft nose dive and some land well before the runway! I use AISeperation but the problems die's down after about 10 minutes. Go put the kettle on while the system sorts itself out :(

Thanks guys... :(

You say you are experiencing this in Australia John

I don't believe I ever said anything about 'Australia'... :( I will say this, this problem happens there as well but the only airports I mentioned specifically above was KMDW and KBUR. Anyway there seems to be enough common consensus here to warrant this an issue with FS9's handling of AI. I use AI settings of 95% which very well could be a problem with too much too fast for FS9. Like what was said the system needs time to sort everything out. That sounds logical so I'll chock this up as a non issue and move on...

I don't believe I ever said anything about 'Australia'... :( I will say this, this problem happens there as well but the only airports I mentioned specifically above was KMDW and KBUR. Anyway there seems to be enough common consensus here to warrant this an issue with FS9's handling of AI. I use AI settings of 95% which very well could be a problem with too much too fast for FS9. Like what was said the system needs time to sort everything out. That sounds logical so I'll chock this up as a non issue and move on...

Sorry, Les, I obviously misunderstood your comment " I'm finding rogue AI that appear sporadically throughout OZ that appear to operate outside of ATC control." I'm not sure what you mean by OZ then.I would not write it off as a "non-issue" yet, and have spent more time thinking about this. As I said, I do not normally experience this and therefore I do not think it is typical Flight Simulator behaviour and something must be causing it. As I understand it, whenever a flight is started (or restarted) and the AI engine grinds into action, AI aircraft start in one of two places - at the gate or far enough away from their destination to make a full and proper approach. This can be witnessed by starting up a flight situation by the runway at a busy airport like EGLL or EHAM and watching what happens. For me, I see nothing happen until a gaggle of aircraft taxi out to the runway and start taking off, then a little while later arrivals will appear, sometimes badly bunched, and make their approach and either land or get given the go-around. The fact that both appear in crowds is hardly realistic, but it is a result of how I believe the AI engine works.I have about as much AI commercial traffic as can be (far more than can be found using installer packages alone) and a good quantity of GA traffic too, all running at 100%. I think my skies are about as full as they can be (except I do not run military fighter traffic) without duplication.If so many others are experiencing different behaviour then I am sure something must be causing it. The question is what? Here are my thoughts so far:1. I do not use any AI management add-ons like AI Smooth2. I am fastidious (bordering on the obsessive) about my flight plans - for commercial traffic I have just one file for each continent. This ensures no duplication of airline schedules, but more significantly, a difference could be that I have one file doing what others may have 100 files doing. Theoretically this should make no difference, but it is worth considering as a possibility.3. I never install direct from WOAI or other installers - I install to a temporary location and paste the schedules into my one-per-continent files. I never copy the airport data for any airport not already in my airports file, instead I load AFCAD2 or AFX and extract the airport data from there. This ensures the airport data is always consistent and accurate (see comments in my previous posting above).4. I am careful about duplicated AFD files.If I can think of any further ideas I will post them.Best wishes,John

I've noticed the same thing for a number of years now, and that includes all different setups, airports, and AI packages. I just simply assumed its a slight bug in fs...doesn't happen often enough to bother me.

LesWhat you are seeing can be explained. All planes (AI / User) must land on a runway texture in order for ATC to know where they are at. If a plane lands before the runway and rolls up to it or a plane lands on the runway and rolls off the texture and then back on ATC unlocks the runway. If ATC unlocks a runway then you see 2 or more planes on the runway at the same time. Example, A AI Plane touches down before the runway. ATC will now tell you the user to take the active runway and you could pull out in front of the airplane that is rolling toward the runway. The code that ATC uses is the contact points of the main gear. If the main gear touches the ground ATC unlocks the runway for more departures or arrivals. ATC expects AI/User planes to land on the runway texture which keeps the runway locked until the main gear exits the side of the runway texture. You can do the same thing with your plane. Land on a runway with one main gear off to the side of the runway texture, ATC will immediately tell you to contact ground regardless of speed or position on the runway. Any AI Planes waiting for takeoff will now be cleared for takeoff and can over run your plane.The proper ATC code expects a plane to approach the runway on a proper glidepath. When the AI Plane crosses the FAF Terminal_Waypoint, Tower clears the plane to land. This is the point which the runway is locked. The plane lands normally on the runway texture and then when the main gear clears the side of the runway ATC unlocks the runway for the next arrival or departure. Any odd AI behavior interupts this code sequence and causes all the issues you see.Nothing about AFCAD altitude settings, Flightplans, percent of AI settings have anything to do with the flyable AI plane behavior. So what causes AI Planes to fall short of a runway. The first problem has already been explained. On startup FS generates many AI Planes within the visual zone (125 Nm radius of your User Plane). Some may be too high and dive to the runway and cannot recover when reaching the FAF hard floor. However there are many airport runways that even after the sim settles down you will still see AI planes falling short of the touchdown point of a runway. Here are a few examples, Any active runway at KBUR except runway 08. Any active runway at KMDW except runway 13/31C and 4R. Runway 09 at EHAM. Runway 09 at TNCM. Runway 27 at KSAN and the list can be endless.When you continue to see AI planes fall short of a runway it is because1. Poor Flight Dynamics (FD's)2. No ILS approach code in the database.Many AI planes can only make a proper approach and land if they are assisted by the ILS approach code in clear weather (VMC). Take away the ILS approach code or watch AI Planes land on any runway at KBUR (except runway 08) and some will fall through the hardfloor and taxi on the ground to a runway regardless of time the sim has been running. The ILS approach code out of all 12 type approaches in FS is the only one that is a all weather approach. Many AI modlers only test their AI Plane at large airports with ILS approach code in severe clear weather. Take away the ILS approach code or use a runway that has no ILS approach code and you start to see just how bad some of these AI Plane FD's are designed.When no XML ILS approach code exist for a runway then FS uses a fallback approach hardcode in the AI_player.dll file that is the same for all airports. It uses a rho (distance value) of about 5 Nm's from the runway touchdown point (no FAF) and a hardfloor of 2000 ft AGL. Many AI Planes have very poor sink rates when gear deploys in a turn and this is enough to send it through the hardfloor and not be able to recover (sinks to the ground). A good Airport to test FD's in clear weather for any model AI Plane is KSAN runway 27 or EHAM runway 09. These are XML localizer approachs or VORDME so if I see a AI Plane fall short of the runway (VMC conditions) I change out the FD's for that model with Jan Martin's set.

1. Poor Flight Dynamics (FD's)2. No ILS approach code in the database.

I don't know about this as both KMDW and KBUR both have pretty good ILS systems both in FS and the real world. The scenery I use for KMDW is FlyTampa's outstanding rendition, Shez's offering is what I use for KBUR. Speaking AI I'm pretty sure (can't confirm this outside of a 90% success rate on most AI flights) Flight1's Ultimate Traffic and WOAI's FDE's are pretty stable. Really no way to test this but the frequency of the problem many of us are seeing doesn't lead to a smoking gun that the various AI FDE's are the problem. Like I said 90% of AI flights have no problem and a 737NG that makes it successfully down is no different that the one that doesn't. I'm not seeing on specific model that continually can't make it to the runway and/or lands short of the runway.

I don't know about this as both KMDW and KBUR both have pretty good ILS systems both in FS and the real world. The scenery I use for KMDW is FlyTampa's outstanding rendition, Shez's offering is what I use for KBUR. Speaking AI I'm pretty sure (can't confirm this outside of a 90% success rate on most AI flights) Flight1's Ultimate Traffic and WOAI's FDE's are pretty stable. Really no way to test this but the frequency of the problem many of us are seeing doesn't lead to a smoking gun that the various AI FDE's are the problem. Like I said 90% of AI flights have no problem and a 737NG that makes it successfully down is no different that the one that doesn't. I'm not seeing on specific model that continually can't make it to the runway and/or lands short of the runway.

Airport scenery has nothing to do with the way a plane will land or not. If that was true then Flytampa's Kai Tak would not have AI Planes flying the IGS 13 curved approach. Scenery is classed as a visual and approach code is classed as non-visual. KBUR only has one ILS approach which is runway 08. KMDW has 3 ILS approaches. Most Flightplan developers such as WOAI do not make FDE's but use AI planes from approved sources. WOAI does not even make a Flightplan but combine other developers work into an installer. You ask for a reason why AI Planes and ATC have what appears to be rogue AI that appear sporadically throughout OZ that appear to operate outside of ATC control. I gave you the reasons and test you can perform to find what AI Plane behavior is less then acceptable. AI Planes that fall through the hard floor of the FAF altitude is based on 3 reasons.1. On startup of FS based on the backtime arrival code2. Poor FDE's for some AI Planes 3. No ILS approach code to a runway in clear weather (has nothing to do with a ILS set of beams added with AFCAD)

I'm happy to stand corrected on this issue, even though I have never witnessed it. It is curious that the programmed approach problems do not seem to arise at the airports I regularly use in FS - mostly Britain and across Europe. One naturally expects Microsoft to have put more effort in to those in their home country. Perhaps I should go and lurk at some of the previously-mentioned US locations.John

I'm happy to stand corrected on this issue, even though I have never witnessed it. It is curious that the programmed approach problems do not seem to arise at the airports I regularly use in FS - mostly Britain and across Europe. One naturally expects Microsoft to have put more effort in to those in their home country. Perhaps I should go and lurk at some of the previously-mentioned US locations.John

JohnYou don't have to leave Europe. Set winds so runway 09 at EHAM is the active. After the sim settles down continue to watch arrivals. Runway 09 is a weather related VORDME approach. That means in clear weather (VMC) there is no help from any approach code in FS9 for landing AI Planes. Some of the Aardvark and Fruitstand AI Planes will fall through the hardfloor that is in the player_AI.dll and can be seen rolling across the ground (lost ATC focus). Most of the PAI older models will fly the hard coded approach (Jan Martin's original FDE's). After watching some AI Planes fall to the ground now reset FS9 with weather at 3 mile visibility or less and 1000 ft (stratus cloud layer). Be sure the airport is IMC which at EHAM is hard to set at times since it is below sea level (listen to ATIS). Now ATC will instruct the AI planes to fly the VORDME coded XML approach (not a visual approach) which has a hardfloor and FAF. This will assist the AI Planes by compensation for poor FDE's to make the touchdown point of the runway.

JohnYou don't have to leave Europe. Set winds so runway 09 at EHAM is the active. After the sim settles down continue to watch arrivals. Runway 09 is a weather related VORDME approach. That means in clear weather (VMC) there is no help from any approach code in FS9 for landing AI Planes. Some of the Aardvark and Fruitstand AI Planes will fall through the hardfloor that is in the player_AI.dll and can be seen rolling across the ground (lost ATC focus). Most of the PAI older models will fly the hard coded approach (Jan Martin's original FDE's). After watching some AI Planes fall to the ground now reset FS9 with weather at 3 mile visibility or less and 1000 ft (stratus cloud layer). Be sure the airport is IMC which at EHAM is hard to set at times since it is below sea level (listen to ATIS). Now ATC will instruct the AI planes to fly the VORDME coded XML approach (not a visual approach) which has a hardfloor and FAF. This will assist the AI Planes by compensation for poor FDE's to make the touchdown point of the runway.

Hi,No offence intended but I will take your word on that because firstly I have Runway 9 closed to all traffic (to force use of parallel runways) and secondly, believe it or not, I have never explored how to set up specific weather as I always use downloaded weather. Sounds a good chuckle to watch, though.Best wishes and thanks,John