Hi Chris,I'm not suggesting lowering gear at 20 miles out should be considered standard procedure but if you're having problems keeping the speed down it is an option. There is no rule prohibiting this. If you are continually going too fast then the aircraft may be over-weight. I regularly fly straight-in approaches in a PMDG737-900 without problems.The speed needs to be considerably less than 250kts on a straight-in otherwise you will have problems irrespective of aircraft weight. That's why I suggested 210kts. Things become a lot more manageable at lower speeds.And yes, LOWI is a difficult airport and requires NOTAMS, smaller aircraft and good pilot skills!

Yes Ray it's all down to the speed.If any real time jet pilot was constantly lowering the gear that early he'd have to repot to Fisdo and probably wouldn't be in a job very long.I bet you hear the gear going down where you live don't you!I tried to get the captain to blip the throttles over your place last Saturday night(2020 local)but he refused!I'd guess the gear went down at 5 miles.

Yes Ray it's all down to the speed.If any real time jet pilot was constantly lowering the gear that early he'd have to repot to Fisdo and probably wouldn't be in a job very long.I bet you hear the gear going down where you live don't you!I tried to get the captain to blip the throttles over your place last Saturday night(2020 local)but he refused!I'd guess the gear went down at 5 miles.

:( Many years ago I flew back to EGCC from EGKK and was allowed into the flight deck for the duration. Happy days! The gear was dropped when the aircraft was approaching the Stockport railway viaduct which would be around 8-10 miles out. I use 10 miles in FS so I can stabilise the aircraft well before landing.I live to the south of the approach to 23R but if you were to depart 05L I'm right under LISTO1S at 24DME from POL. I'm ready with my machine gun should your infuence with pilots improve! :(

The problem i have is with the 737, it is a ###### to slow down.RC will descend me down to FL110/120 and keep me there until contacting approach at 40miles.Now by the time you can finally start descent its usually down to 35miles, and going by the 3 times rule i will need 12000ft to descend at a rate of 2000ft per minute.Now try and slow down a 737 from 250kts at 2000ft per minute.The average i usually get when hitting the FLCHG is around 1500ft per minute, not enough.Having to maintain 200 to 210kts 40 miles out which is what you have to do is silly, you should be able to maintain 250kts until well inside this.Any real 737 drivers around that can confirm this is how the real bird behaves, and what are your methods in regards to what profile you fly,speeds, slowing down etc etcAndy

The problem i have is with the 737, it is a ###### to slow down.

What model are you flying? PMDG, Arianne or default? You should have no more than 6-7000lbs of fuel by the time you are 40 miles out. Are you too heavy?

RC will descend me down to FL110/120 and keep me there until contacting approach at 40miles.

If you calculate your descent or use a FMC/CDU you can control your descent so you are at FL110/120 at exactly 40 miles.

Now by the time you can finally start descent its usually down to 35miles, and going by the 3 times rule i will need 12000ft to descend at a rate of 2000ft per minute.

If you were cleared down to FL120/12000ft then that's a far-side approach and you have loads of time to descend. I would guess that at 250kts I could descend at 1000fpm and get down with ease. But reduce to <250kts below 10,000ft. You have less distance when cleared to FL110/11000ft which is why it's important to reduce speed to 210kts by the time you contact APP.

Now try and slow down a 737 from 250kts at 2000ft per minute.

Slow down beforehand so that when you start the descent you're no faster than 210kts. use time time when you make contact with APP.

Having to maintain 200 to 210kts 40 miles out which is what you have to do is silly, you should be able to maintain 250kts until well inside this.

Near-side or far-side approach? For the former you must reduce speed. For the latter I can stay at 280kts until 11000/FL110 and then I start to reduce speed below 250kts. Remember the rule about not exceeding 250kts under 10,000ft on approach is universal. You'll find any real-world pilot who fails to adhere to that won't keep his licence for very long.

I have no trouble getting the PMDG B738 down fast if I have a short approach (straight in). It is busy but using spoilers if necessary provide a steep descent.As soon as you get the descent commands, start the descent then ack. Another command will follow soon. At 30 out I slow to 280, then when below 10,000 FL100 to 210-230.Traffic patterns real world at KMSP show typical altitudes at 30 out of about 10,000. They are distorted right now due to a main runway temporary closure through October so they may appear a little weird but you can watch here:http://flightaware.com/live/airport_status...vt?airport=KMSP for a zoomed in view andhttp://flightaware.com/live/airport/KMSP for an overview.Right now 12L/30R is closed for major surface and support repair. 12R/30R and 17/35 run concurrently. 4/22 is not routinely used unless higher crosswinds demand its use.Sun Country, Southwest Airlines, and Airtran all using 737s and 738s frequently are in the pattern. If you like get their schedules from their web sites for KMSP departures and arrivals. You can monitor KMSP ATC phases at:http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=all for most local phases.

Before i go any further, i try NOT to use the speedbrakes. I am quoting from a well known pilots/aviation website and here are a few comments from 737 drivers;

"I know Southwest Airlines has a no flaps at all with speedbrake usage policy. The party line is Boeing engineers told us so even though it's not in Boeing's manual.""IMHO if speedbrakes are needed, then something has gone wrong in the previous part of the descent. Speedbrakes produce drag and are uncomfortble to passengers.""The FCOM [NGs] say do not extend spoilers below 1000 AGL. The "SPEEDBRAKE EXTENDED" Amber light will illuminated below 800 AGL. Our company has an additional restriction which says do not use speedbrakes with Flaps more than 15.""the 738 has a speed brake load alleviator system, which on kicks in @ 300kias, reducing the speed brake lever and the flight spoiler deflection angle in 50%. (it can be override by the pilot)."And i love this one;"Controller: ABC1234 increase rate of decent Pilot: unable Controller: Don't you have speedbrakes? Pilot: Yes, we do. But they are for my mistakes, not for yours..."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now i try not to use the speedbrakes when flying, but trying to slow the 737 down from 250kts below 10000ft when you start your descent at FL110/120 35 miles out, for me anyway, is difficult.I fly in jets twice a week and quoting one of the pilots above, it is uncomfortable for passengers, you do know when they are deployed.

What model are you flying? PMDG, Arianne or default? You should have no more than 6-7000lbs of fuel by the time you are 40 miles out. Are you too heavy?

The PMDG 737-800. Nope not too heavy, I have as you say, roughly 6-7000lbs of fuel at that point.

Slow down beforehand so that when you start the descent you're no faster than 210kts. use time time when you make contact with APP.

But sometimes my pax would like their Macca's and Burger King earlier coz' they dont like airline food, so i like to maintain 250kts closer than 40 miles. But to try and maintain 250kts and descend from FL120/110 from 35 miles even when using the FLCHG on the MCP, well it is very difficult to do. The faster you can go closer to the airfield the better, for both airline and ATC, but of course sometimes thats not always possible. Another quote from a controller this time from the same website;

As a very general guildeline, and if no speeds have been assigned, as you descend through 10,000 we expect 250 kts, then reducing to 210 abeam the airport on downwind, 180 kts on base....In this day and age generally,the faster you fly the final approach, the more aircraft can be landed per hour. I'm talking about 180kts to 4 mile final.

Try doing that in the 737 without the use of speedbrakes!The bottom line is, i find it surprising at how difficult it is to slow this aircraft down from 250kts below 10000ft without the use of speedbrakes, when RC has you start descent at 35 miles at FL120/110.Andy

Andy,You keep referring to FL110/FL120 but these are two very different sets of circumstances. You cannot maintain the same speeds when cleared down to FL110 as you can when cleared to FL120.With the latter you fly abeam the airfield to a point 12-15 miles beyond and the speeds you quoted from the website are what I would expect for such an approach. You have plenty fo time to slow down and get down.However, for a near-side or straight-in you have to keep the speed down or yes, you will have problems.You're using the same aircraft as me and your final weight is okay so what I have advised you to do is not difficult. But if you insist staying at 250kts for as long as possible to keep your virtual passengers happy then you're doomed to failure unless you use speedbrakes.I'm not quoting from some manual. I have flown these procedures countless times and it's not difficult. Please give it a try.

Hi Guys,Looking at this topic two things strike me,below 10000ft whilst 250knts is the upper limit many stars throughout the world contain SLP,speed limit points and these have to be obeyed unless ATC order otherwise,and the second point is ,unless I have been a lucky guy I have not had any problems in getting down to the ILS levels using the NG737.M y descent rates usually start at 1500 ft until passing 10000ft then reduced to a rate of 1000 ft,whilst i wind back the speed to 188 for the ILS intercept.I usually fly in Europe or the US on Airline flights.RegardsNorman

... and the second point is ,unless I have been a lucky guy I have not had any problems in getting down to the ILS levels using the NG737.M y descent rates usually start at 1500 ft until passing 10000ft then reduced to a rate of 1000 ft,whilst i wind back the speed to 188 for the ILS intercept.I usually fly in Europe or the US on Airline flights.RegardsNorman

Hi Norman,You're not lucky, nor am I. Descending is all about forward planning and anticipating your next instruction from ATC. Those speeds and rates are similar to mine.I'm wondering if Andy is controlling his descent and speed manually or using the CDU. I find that entering a FAF around 13 miles out and updating it with my cleared altitude ensures smooth descents. Perhaps that's something he could try if all else fails.

Hi Norman,You're not lucky, nor am I. Descending is all about forward planning and anticipating your next instruction from ATC. Those speeds and rates are similar to mine.I'm wondering if Andy is controlling his descent and speed manually or using the CDU. I find that entering a FAF around 13 miles out and updating it with my cleared altitude ensures smooth descents. Perhaps that's something he could try if all else fails.

Hi Ray,The one thing that is missing with Andys posts is the actual method which he is using to descend the aircraft! Without this detail we are all trying to guess which method is employed and are therefore having to talk in more general terms.I do find that when trying to request an IAP that on some occasions I can get that request in before the descend instruction is given at 40 miles and on other occasions I have to wait until that exchange is finished.Does this alter in V5?Regards from Colne on the Hill in East LancashireNorman

Ok, let me explain how i conduct my descent.I have a STAR set in the FMC, but dont use it for controlling speed in descent.Instead when initially cleared to descend, i use V/S at a rate of 1700ft per minute which enables me to reach RC's target of FL120 at 40 miles (otherwise RC will vector me away until i reach the target altitude then will tell me to resume own navigation when at FL120-a pain in the &amp;@(&#036;*!!!), whereby RC will hand you off to approach for arrivals. When contacting approach at 40 miles, i ask for an instrument approach, usually a VOR approach so i can complete the STAR.When cleared to descend from FL120 im already at 250kts, and initiate the descent through the LVL CHG switch on the MCP, which im led to believe from the manual and from May/June 2008 edition of PC PILOT, will let me descend at MAX rate from the airspeed i have selected in the IAS/MACH indicator, usually at 250kts, around 1500ft per minute.However the aircraft will not descend at a quick enough rate to allow me to, for example to intercept the ILS, im usually too high.What i mean is that by using the times 3 rule, at FL120 i will need roughly 36 miles to descend at a rate of 2000ft per minute. Yet it wont descend that quickly. Its ok if the STAR has some extra track miles, yet if it hasnt then its a must to initiate the descent at max 220kts.So as you say Ray, i have to fly a speed of max 220kts when cleared to descend from FL120, in order to descend quick enough.Now i know its a different bird, but i use exactly the same procedure with the PMDG 747 and have absolutely no problem. But as i said, different bird.

Hi Andy,Instead of FLCH mode try VNAV and ensure the altitudes for the STAR waypoints are okay. They should be. You might want to check the speeds for each of those waypoints too and keep them on the low side for now. I wouldn't use LVL CHG - I think it will descend you too steeply and that's when you'll end up too fast. VNAV will get you down to the altitude for each waypoint and your speed will be okay.On your CDU there is a FIX button. Press it and enter the airport ICAO and /40 for the distance. A ring will be drawn around the airport 40 miles out. Use that to assist with descent. Alternatively add a waypoint 40 miles out. That always works for me. :(

Hi Ray,The one thing that is missing with Andys posts is the actual method which he is using to descend the aircraft! Without this detail we are all trying to guess which method is employed and are therefore having to talk in more general terms.I do find that when trying to request an IAP that on some occasions I can get that request in before the descend instruction is given at 40 miles and on other occasions I have to wait until that exchange is finished.Does this alter in V5?Regards from Colne on the Hill in East LancashireNorman

Hi Norm,As you may have seen he's using LVL CHG which I wouldn't recommend. I use FL CH when climbing because it guarantees the selected speed but on descent I stick to VNAV or very occasionally V/SPD.I'll have to check how the IAP request is handled in v5. I tend to stick to APP control.

Hi Andy,I will be flying into Oslo ENGM tonight using 737NG and Sig 5 STAR.I will let you know what happens and in what sequence.I will post Monday UK timeRegardsNorman

Righto gents,thanks for your help.Ray, i will use the FMC for my next descent and see if that makes a difference.Norman no probs, i will have a look then.Andy

Righto gents,thanks for your help.Ray, i will use the FMC for my next descent and see if that makes a difference.Norman no probs, i will have a look then.Andy

Hi Andy and Ray,Using a 737-800 I flew into OsloENGM using a Sigdal arrival for Runway 1L.A close study of the chart suggests that unless one reads it fully you could get into the problems Andy encounted.RC cleared for descent about 20nm before TOD on FMC,cleared down to FL110 and not more than 250knts prior to the Vakir waypoint which according to the chart must be flown at FL140B.At this point RC handed off to approach at 38 nm to go.I requested IAP App and was cleared down to 4000ft.A quick check of the chart shows 4000ft at Soner waypoint but this is preceeded by MNM(minimum).In other words at this point you can be higher but not lower than 4000ft.The distance between Vakir and Soner is 11nm-Hence Andy this the point at which your troubles occur.The distance to the ILS intercept at 3000ft is a further 12.7 miles.You have 23.7 nm in which to descend 7000ft,a much easier proposition.My descent rate over the last 23 miles was not more than 1500 ft on the v|s and then only until below FL100.I managed to bleed the speed down to an ILS intercept speed of 188.The FMC instructions advise that a steep descent is required after Vakir but this is because of the height in the FMC not being shown in the correct manner.Be aware that the FMC speeds are usually overidden by the pilots when ATC speed requests are received.On reflection ,unless one reads the charts and takes in all of the information you can fall into many traps.RC got all of this correct clearing you down to the MSA for the airport and then it is up to the pilot to intercept the ILS at the given height.I hope that this helps Andy.RegardsNorman Bowman