I have been suffering with RCv4 ATC leaving me way too high on approach. Let me explam what happens....First off I pretty much always put a user waypoint into the FMC for 45nm out from the airport and a FL110/100 restriction so that I can cross at the right height when ATC says "descent to XXX, be level in 30nm or less" However, in the last few flights I have done this has left me way too high for desceding as per the flight charts to reach the turn to finals at the right height. I was coming into ENGM at FL110 and contacted approach who left me at 110 for quite a while then told me to descent to 4000ft but there was not enough distance to do it before turning finals. This is all despit me asking for an ILS approach rather than a normal vectored one.Is there any way I can get rid of ALL heigh restrictions on the final part of the approach so that I can fly the STAR correctly? Please help as this is the ONLY part of RCv4 that is causing me trouble, all the rest is amazing.Andy S

I have been suffering with RCv4 ATC leaving me way too high on approach. Let me explam what happens....First off I pretty much always put a user waypoint into the FMC for 45nm out from the airport and a FL110/100 restriction so that I can cross at the right height when ATC says "descent to XXX, be level in 30nm or less" However, in the last few flights I have done this has left me way too high for desceding as per the flight charts to reach the turn to finals at the right height. I was coming into ENGM at FL110 and contacted approach who left me at 110 for quite a while then told me to descent to 4000ft but there was not enough distance to do it before turning finals. This is all despit me asking for an ILS approach rather than a normal vectored one.Is there any way I can get rid of ALL heigh restrictions on the final part of the approach so that I can fly the STAR correctly? Please help as this is the ONLY part of RCv4 that is causing me trouble, all the rest is amazing.Andy S

if you ask for an iap approach - you're on your own. you fly your headings, your altitudes, rc is not watching you, or telling you what to do. when rc sees you lined up on the runway you chose, and at 7 miles, he will swithc you to tower.

Sorry for the late reply...I know you are on your own aftre requesting an IAP it seems to make me contact approach long too late to be able to descend on the STAR. My last flight by the time I had got the IAP and been given a "descend to 4000 until established" the descent profile was unachivable as I was about 2-3000 feet above the profile as a result of having to stay at FL110 while waiting to contact app and get the descent.

RC uses the generally accepted 3:1 rule for TOD. For specific locations see if you can request a lower altitude before contacting approach and initiating the IAP. How far out were you from destination when you got past the expected runway from approach and could then request an IAP? What was the airport elevation and were you doing a near straight-in rather than base/interesect or downwind/base/intersect? Airport MSA?

Sorry for the late reply...I know you are on your own aftre requesting an IAP it seems to make me contact approach long too late to be able to descend on the STAR. My last flight by the time I had got the IAP and been given a "descend to 4000 until established" the descent profile was unachivable as I was about 2-3000 feet above the profile as a result of having to stay at FL110 while waiting to contact app and get the descent.

Had a similar issue myself yesterday. Flew EDDF-LOWI with the PMDG J41 @FL200. Near Munich I was told to descent to FL170 and expect rwy26. Closer to the Alps I was told to descent to FL120. Over the Alps I was told to descent to FL110 until established.Hoewever...the airport is located at 1906ft.The result was that i was waaayyyy too high to be even able to intercept the ILS.I'm not sure if this flight can be reproduced...I understand that it's imperative to get over the mountains :( but still...I'd expect a lower alt immediatly after x'ing the Alps.

Had a similar issue myself yesterday. Flew EDDF-LOWI with the PMDG J41 @FL200. Near Munich I was told to descent to FL170 and expect rwy26. Closer to the Alps I was told to descent to FL120. Over the Alps I was told to descent to FL110 until established.Hoewever...the airport is located at 1906ft.The result was that i was waaayyyy too high to be even able to intercept the ILS.I'm not sure if this flight can be reproduced...I understand that it's imperative to get over the mountains :( but still...I'd expect a lower alt immediatly after x'ing the Alps.

i'm not going to descend you below the msa of the airport. what is the msa of the airport?this might be a candidate for notams approach, or for you to fly an iap approach. both documented in the manualjd

I was just coming in to Olso (ENGM) at FL110 when I contacted approach. They told me to descend to 4000 to until established. The only problem was that to get down in time requied a V/S so high that there was no way I could maintain 250kts! Needless to say I didn't make it. It would be really good if there was some way of not having any alt restrictions on descent so you could just fly the STAR with the altitudes as per the charts. It's really hard to explain what actually happens when tyring to follow a STAR. Andy S

I was just coming in to Olso (ENGM) at FL110 when I contacted approach. They told me to descend to 4000 to until established. The only problem was that to get down in time requied a V/S so high that there was no way I could maintain 250kts! Needless to say I didn't make it. It would be really good if there was some way of not having any alt restrictions on descent so you could just fly the STAR with the altitudes as per the charts. It's really hard to explain what actually happens when tyring to follow a STAR. Andy S

you have everything you need. when you are given the initial descent clearance (assuming copilot isn't on comms), ask for it to be at pilot's discretion. then you can continue flying your star, and when the star says to start descending, let atc know you are starting down. you will get some altitudes then, but you should still be able to fly your star.you still have to make your crossing restriction. remember, the star ends when you contact approach. then ask for an iap, and fly your approach.key is your pilot's discretion on the first descent clearance.and if you do arrival notams, you will never be yelled at for being at the altitude your star says, even though rc may want you at a different altitude.i'm sure this whole star thing will change in v5. working on the dp/sid now.jd

i'm not going to descend you below the msa of the airport. what is the msa of the airport?this might be a candidate for notams approach, or for you to fly an iap approach. both documented in the manualjd

The MSA is 1893-1906ft.According to http://ivao.xenoflex.de/Download/Charts/LOWI.pdf I fly from MUNCHEN via a TULSI3A to RATTENBERG. At RATTENBERG I should've been at FL095.I'm gonna try an IAP on this one today.

you have everything you need. when you are given the initial descent clearance (assuming copilot isn't on comms), ask for it to be at pilot's discretion. then you can continue flying your star, and when the star says to start descending, let atc know you are starting down. you will get some altitudes then, but you should still be able to fly your star.you still have to make your crossing restriction. remember, the star ends when you contact approach. then ask for an iap, and fly your approach.key is your pilot's discretion on the first descent clearance.and if you do arrival notams, you will never be yelled at for being at the altitude your star says, even though rc may want you at a different altitude.i'm sure this whole star thing will change in v5. working on the dp/sid now.jd

I do the PD descent and it works ok if I put in a manually entered waypoint at about 40-45nm from arrival airport and at FL110 or whatever ATC will want me to be at. That way when they say "i need you level in 30 miles or less" I can do it with the FMC. The problem is that if I was to continue following the STAR the vertical profile would have me descending all the time while I am being held at FL110 while contacting approach and getting an IAP. This takes so long that by the time they say "maintain 4000 feet until established..." the STAR vertical profile has gone so far below the FL110 current alt that it is not possible to descent and "catch up" with the profile in time. I really find this hard to explain so I'll put up a graphic example I drew. It exaplains what happens in the above example as opposed to what should happen according to the STAR.Would selecting NOTAMS arrival mean I would not be required to be at FL100 at the 40nm before arrival and not need to meet any other alt restrictions? I have never used NOTAMS arrival before.Thanks for all the help so far guys.Andy S

NOTAMS take effect when the crossing restriction is issued and the controller will say "if able . . ." or "if feasible . . .". Please see page 50 in the RC43 manual. At that time you can elect to go above if terrain is a problem or below the crossing restriction.NOTAMS relieve the responsibility of sticking to ATC altitude clearances but you are required to still follow issued headings and/or stick to your planned route until handed off to approach when you can elect to take an IAP to fully navigate your own arrival. NOTAMS can be used to stay higher after the crossing restriction so you can also deliberately get a steeper descent to clear high terrain before descending.Some destinations in their arrival require a descending procedure turn and/or descending race track pattern after terrain is cleared. A fix is provided in the approach plate. RC4 would definitely require an IAP in this case. A descending race track pattern can be accomplished by entering a holding point in the FMC and using LNAV while controlling descent with ALT and V/S to get down to the glideslope or interception point for the vertical profile.In my experience you can elect to fly an IAP when you are 30 nm out and you have just started the approach phase. Thirty miles should be sufficient to get down in time using a slightly steeper descent by slowing down with drag devices employed if needed.If you are using an FMC that provides a range ring display facility (For the Boeing types use the FIX page and enter the airport ICAO as the FIX label and /40 as the radial/distance entry) you can use those to provide descent information. In the 737NG I use MCP V/S to control pitch for descent rate and if I can't get slow enough under idle thrust I'll deploy spoilers as speed brakes and to increase descent rate. By using range rings you are provided with destination distance-to-go awareness for your vertical guidance no matter how you are vectored through the pattern. If your ND also displays altitude trend arcs you'll know if you'll meet your altitude goals as the arcs cross or fall short of the range rings.

The MSA is 1893-1906ft.According to http://ivao.xenoflex.de/Download/Charts/LOWI.pdf I fly from MUNCHEN via a TULSI3A to RATTENBERG. At RATTENBERG I should've been at FL095.I'm gonna try an IAP on this one today.

what does rc say the MSA is. i think you gave me the airport elevation.my records show the msa of 9000 ft. which would explain why you are never descended below that. one of the criticisms of v3, was being descended into terrain. now i use the MSA.after you load the plan, click the lowi button, and look at the msa value.jd

I was just coming in to Olso (ENGM) at FL110 when I contacted approach. They told me to descend to 4000 to until established. The only problem was that to get down in time requied a V/S so high that there was no way I could maintain 250kts! Needless to say I didn't make it.

Andy,A flight level of 110 indicates a straight-in approach and your speed is critical. Are you adhering to the 250kt limit or are you going faster?I've found in situations like this it's best if you can reduce speed to around 210kts by the time RC starts you down from FL110. You then have more time to reach the required altitude. Flights to Milan from the south are a good example as the landing runways are nearly always 35L/35R.If you're flying a 'heavy' such as an A340 then it's essential to stay one step ahead of the controller and try to anticipate your next move. Fly it again and see how it goes with speeds around 210kts at FL110.If you're struggling to keep the speed down lower the gear as well as the flaps. That's a legitimate move and very effective.

Andy,A flight level of 110 indicates a straight-in approach and your speed is critical. Are you adhering to the 250kt limit or are you going faster?I've found in situations like this it's best if you can reduce speed to around 210kts by the time RC starts you down from FL110. You then have more time to reach the required altitude. Flights to Milan from the south are a good example as the landing runways are nearly always 35L/35R.If you're flying a 'heavy' such as an A340 then it's essential to stay one step ahead of the controller and try to anticipate your next move. Fly it again and see how it goes with speeds around 210kts at FL110.If you're struggling to keep the speed down lower the gear as well as the flaps. That's a legitimate move and very effective.

Hi RayJust catching up after being away.It's not a good idea to deploy the gear so far out really.About 5/7 mile final is near enough the mark.It's certainly right to get the speed down to les than 250 if possible.Max clean is the usual solution.NOTAMS are the only way to go in RC for places like LOWI.And the big iron does not go there.757s are probably the biggest.Special crew certification is required in the real world.The SIDS there are fun too!

Hi RayJust catching up after being away.It's not a good idea to deploy the gear so far out really.About 5/7 mile final is near enough the mark.It's certainly right to get the speed down to les than 250 if possible.Max clean is the usual solution.NOTAMS are the only way to go in RC for places like LOWI.And the big iron does not go there.757s are probably the biggest.Special crew certification is required in the real world.The SIDS there are fun too!

Hi Chris,I'm not suggesting lowering gear at 20 miles out should be considered standard procedure but if you're having problems keeping the speed down it is an option. There is no rule prohibiting this. If you are continually going too fast then the aircraft may be over-weight. I regularly fly straight-in approaches in a PMDG737-900 without problems.The speed needs to be considerably less than 250kts on a straight-in otherwise you will have problems irrespective of aircraft weight. That's why I suggested 210kts. Things become a lot more manageable at lower speeds.And yes, LOWI is a difficult airport and requires NOTAMS, smaller aircraft and good pilot skills!