VRS superbug released, but their support forum is off limits to non-customers?!?

[mmann 72]

I too was considering buying this plane when I had updated to a computer capable of running it. Many thanks to the posters on AVSIM Forum for pointing out the way VRS treats their paying customers. I now won't entertain the idea of purchasing any software from this company. Thanks again to all the great posters here at AVSIM, the information you post here provides a real service to the Flight Sim community!Regards, Mike Mann

[kdfw__ 539]

I too was considering buying this plane when I had updated to a computer capable of running it. Many thanks to the posters on AVSIM Forum for pointing out the way VRS treats their paying customers. I now won't entertain the idea of purchasing any software from this company. Thanks again to all the great posters here at AVSIM, the information you post here provides a real service to the Flight Sim community!Regards, Mike Mann

what's with all whiners and complainers here? Buy on the cheap, get service on the cheap. Anyway, your loss.

[CoolP 283]

what's with all whiners and complainers here? Buy on the cheap, get service on the cheap. Anyway, your loss.

You must be the role model of a confident customer getting treated "cheap" and feeling very happy about it. Such simple equations there, very "convincing". :rolleyes:I'm sorry, I can't follow you. The least thing other customers demand (for good reason) is a clear statement on the box or somewhere else that "cheap buying" will make you a customer second class. If a company isn't able to at least establish this sort of honesty, it has very little to gain in this small flight sim market and is very much part of the problems there.'Pay for getting treated without the right to speak' isn't a good advertisement statement, is it? Although, some seem to be very fine with it.

[kdfw__ 539]

You must be the role model of a confident customer getting treated "cheap" and feeling very happy about it. Such simple equations there, very "convincing". :rolleyes:I'm sorry, I can't follow you. The least thing other customers demand (for good reason) is a clear statement on the box or somewhere else that "cheap buying" will make you a customer second class. If a company isn't able to at least establish this sort of honesty, it has very little to gain in this small flight sim market and is very much part of the problems there.'Pay for getting treated without the right to speak' isn't a good advertisement statement, is it? Although, some seem to be very fine with it.

Paid download price for mine, worth every penny and much more. Regardless, if this causes emotional problems, don't get it. Your loss.

[N400QW 205]

Paid download price for mine, worth every penny and much more. Regardless, if this causes emotional problems, don't get it. Your loss.

Ha ha, That's funny right there...I don't care who you are...:(

[Jaggyroad Films 4]

I want to set the record straight on all of this. There is a lot of mis-speaking and incorrect information.If you buy the boxed set:1) YOU GET FULL PRODUCT SUPPORT VIA E-MAIL2) YOU GET A PRODUCT DISK AND BOX3) YOU GET THE PRODUCT FOR ROUGHLY 30% BELOW THOSE WHO PURCHASE ONLINE4) YOU STILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE SUPPORT FORUM, HOWEVER YOU SIMPLY CANNOT POST5) SHOULD YOU UPGRADE YOUR PRODUCT TO GET ACCESS TO THE SUPPORT FORUM IT COSTS $5.95 (STILL 20% CHEAPER THAN ONLINE PURCHASE)Those who say you do not get support are COMPLETELY incorrect.How many times have you purchased a product, only to find that you could have gotten it cheaper at the store? Perhaps MUCH cheaper? Or perhaps you found a sale came afterwards and you missed out on a savings? The reality is that VRS wanted to give some value added support for those who paid for the product at full price online.I want to reiterate the following:YOU STILL GET E-MAIL SUPPORT FOR THE PRODUCT, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOU CANNOT MAKE POSTS TO THE SUPPORT FORUM! As usual I see a lot of pitchforks and fire, but everyone is marching around in the dark not knowing where they are going or what they want to burn. Varmint's official response:

A couple of issues have recently been raised both in this hot Avsim topic and in a few other places regarding two subjects: copy protection and tech support.I'll start with copy protection since this seems to be the biggest issue. The Superbug requires software activation whereby the software is tied to your machine either through hardware, software or a combination of the two. The user is permitted to install the software on a single computer per license, but in reality we allow for installation on for example a laptop as well. Since the license is tied to the hardware, subsequently CHANGING the hardware reduces the activation count and if the count reaches zero, you're not going to be able to activate. So the user is thus inconvenienced in that they must be mindful of the fact that if their hardware or O/S changes, they're going to have to reactivate.We can make this somewhat more convenient by providing an option to return the license to the server BEFORE making hardware changes, which will free up and activation and simultaneously deactivate the local copy. In cases where it's not possible to do that, of if the user just forgets, they can contact us and we'll simply reset the license. It also gives us the opportunity to see where the activation attempt was made from and evaluate whether or not it's a legitimate request. We have never thus far refused to reactivate a license, but it does allow us to prevent the rampant proliferation of "shared" licenses.The debate, as with every debate I've ever seen regarding piracy, seems to focus on the inconvenience this causes the end-user. Smaller points are IMO, ridiculous nit picks of both EULAs in general, or in fact the very definition of "theft." To paraphrase one individual "Piracy isn't theft, but I don't condone it." Um, would you like some meth to go with your crack? There's no denying it, it's inconvenient. But at the same time so is getting a driver's license and paying a tip at a restaurant. Have you traveled on an airplane recently? A minority of idiots is always to blame for the majority's pain and suffering. You don't like activation and anti-piracy measures getting in the way of your fun, and we don't like paying to develop activation and anti-piracy measures which get in the way of our content development; On that we can agree. Most will argue that anti-piracy measures don't work because "everything is cracked eventually". Well, I will say that everything CAN be cracked and leave it at that. We know full well that we as a company have greatly benefited from pouring time and resources into anti-piracy and I can only think of a handful of FS developers who've invested a similar amount of time protecting their work. If we hadn't protected our software aggressively, we would no longer be in business. That's how serious it is, that's why we do it, and that's why we'll continue doing it. When they come up with a "cure" for theft (or by any distorted definition thereof), we'll drop our anti-piracy measures.Now concerning tech support. Alas, there's always going to be someone who just can't fathom the fact that they have to pay for something that costs time and money to provide. Recent posts on Avsim, SimOuthouse and SimHQ were levied by at least one individual (probably the same guy) just unable to accept the fact that there's value in receiving a service. This is probably one of those cases where they were just too ###### that they couldn't actually collect a working torrent of the Superbug, so they grudgingly purchased a boxed copy. Granted, all the ridiculousness in forums is helping sales tremendously as all it really does is create another source of advertising for us, but rather than get wrapped in those discussions, I'd prefer to express our end of this "debate" here, where our actual customers can read and interject their own opinions. Because as anyone who IS a customer knows, we answer your questions daily and I think you'll agree we do a pretty good job considering all the hats we have to wear.As many of you know, we have a discounted boxed version available in some retail stores. This is a $29.95 product IN A BOX for currently 33% less than the online price that everyone else is paying. The reason it's cheaper in the retail stores is a story in itself, but the fact is, it's cheaper. However this gentleman felt that he was being so incredibly ripped off by the fact that he had to pay additional money for forum post access (interactive support) with his already heavily discounted boxed copy, he started a to tell everyone about his incredibly unjust experience.First, the math:1) Retail box = $29.95 (33% off retail)2) Forum-based tech support option = $5.95 (total price 20% off retail PLUS a box)3) Email support = free and always has been. This individual clearly never bothered to send us one and is thus primarily speaking out of pure ignorance and conjecture. We thought long and hard about the best solution in case where:A) We sell a complex product which requires a certain degree of reading and other fundamental skills to conquer.B ) We, as the developers need to provide the support ourselves, thus directly taking time=money away from development. C) People paying full price deserve value-added incentive.D) Need to find a way to sell a boxed unit at high volume and low price and not actually LOSE money on each unit.What then would be the best solution? Mr. Disgruntled purchased a product in a box at 33% off. He should be patting himself on the back, not whining about having to pay for support which generally speaking isn't free in 9/10 software products sold today. Oh but wait, is IS free, and he never bothered to email us his support question. The fact is, I personally field about 15-20 support emails/day and have never left one without a response. Some additional fun facts and figures: VRS sold approximately 10-15 support options in the last QUARTER. That's $60-$90 if you're still with me... Clearly the intent never was, nor has it blossomed into a booming financial move. So any notion of this being driven by greed is pure **, if you'll pardon the frankness. The intent was and remains very simple: To quell rampant, useless, time consuming posts which could have easily been solved with a simple search or actually reading the manual. So is this the best/only solution? For example how do we, as a tiny entity, both provide universally free access to official support, sell a high-volume boxed version at a cut rate price, and actually have TIME to do anything else? Bottom line(s):VRS provides an optional forum-based interactive tech support option to those purchasing boxed products. We provide FREE email support regardless of where you purchased your product. If people can't live with that, or have some other fundamental issue with paying for a service which costs time and money to provide, then frankly, I think they need to be immediately directed to the nearest pot of coffee.We're more than happy to hear your thoughts on either of these subjects....

http://forums.vrsimu....php?f=7&t=6564Is that clear enough? Please, put the pitch forks down and rant about something tangible. This is absurd in my opinion.Lastly, I want to make an appeal to some of the commercial developers on this thread.... some of whom I know as well. For commercial developers to be speaking ill of other developers products, I find that wholly unprofessional and disrespectful and I hope you reconsider your position. VRS, and many other companies operate daily without making ill comments about others in this industry. We can all start acting a bit less like a cottage industry when we start self policing and keeping our intimate comments to ourselves. Whatever you say also reflects on your business, whether it be appropriate or not, good or bad.I'm all for free speech, and saying what you wish, but I'm also for keeping the professional side of my business away from my personal opinions, especially in public, whatever they may be. I will not speak any further on this subject openly. If you wish to discuss this further with me, please e-mail or PM me.-Cody BerglandOwner, Jaggyroad Films(PS, Ron, this is not in regard to your post mate.)

[CoolP 283]

Cody, the sheer size of text lines doesn't establish conviction on the reader's side. Just stating this because you seem to believe the opposite. :rolleyes:You've named it, you're not allowed to speak when you buy cheap and you've also acknowledged that the buyer of the stuff is informed about this fact right before .. he's up to post. If that's a fair and customer friendly way in your eyes, our views may differ in enormous ranges.I think we can live with that of course and the future buyers of any software will be very pleased to at least have some information available now, without the need to dig into long texts to find out if they are valid customers or not, no second class or something in between.Some, not to say many, companies on the market got that spot, some others still struggle and let the customer wear the burden of their short-sighted business policy (speaking about those cheap box offers and their availableness). Let the sales decides and always be fair on the information before the buy happens. Easy as that. :(

For commercial developers to be speaking ill of other developers products, I find that wholly unprofessional and disrespectful and I hope you reconsider your position.

Is that a warning to not comment on some 'ill" (your words!) business policy? Wow, impressive!A big praise to those devs which don't care about such warnings or the codex it arises from but focus on their business basis, their customers.I'm always happy to be with some of those brave and honest companies I must admit. A role model for others which hopefully follow it.

[N400QW 205]

I want to set the record straight on all of this. There is a lot of mis-speaking and incorrect information.As usual I see a lot of pitchforks and fire, but everyone is marching around in the dark not knowing where they are going or what they want to burn.Is that clear enough? Please, put the pitch forks down and rant about something tangible. This is absurd in my opinion.Lastly, I want to make an appeal to some of the commercial developers on this thread.... some of whom I know as well. For commercial developers to be speaking ill of other developers products, I find that wholly unprofessional and disrespectful and I hope you reconsider your position. VRS, and many other companies operate daily without making ill comments about others in this industry. We can all start acting a bit less like a cottage industry when we start self policing and keeping our intimate comments to ourselves. Whatever you say also reflects on your business, whether it be appropriate or not, good or bad.I'm all for free speech, and saying what you wish, but I'm also for keeping the professional side of my business away from my personal opinions, especially in public, whatever they may be. I will not speak any further on this subject openly. If you wish to discuss this further with me, please e-mail or PM me.-Cody BerglandOwner, Jaggyroad Films(PS, Ron, this is not in regard to your post mate.)

Cody, it appears there is now another small group of self appointed "consumer advocates" who've targeted whomever they wish in order to denigrate and accuse. It would appear that CoolIP is one of the primary instigators under the false pretense of caring about customers and customer service...We agree. It's time for devs to support each others efforts as much as possible given the latest round of gnashing from the peanut gallery. :(

[Jaggyroad Films 4]

Cody, the sheer size of text lines doesn't establish conviction on the reader's side. Just stating this because you seem to believe the opposite. :rolleyes:You've named it, you're not allowed to speak when you buy cheap and you've also acknowledged that the buyer of the stuff is informed about this fact right before .. he's up to post. If that's a fair and customer friendly way in your eyes, our views may differ in enormous ranges.I think we can live with that of course and the future buyers of any software will be very pleased to at least have some information available now, without the need to dig into long texts to find out if they are valid customers or not, no second class or something in between.Some, not to say many, companies on the market got that spot, some others still struggle and let the customer wear the burden of their short-sighted business policy (speaking about those cheap box offers and their availableness). Let the sales decides and always be fair on the information before the buy happens. Easy as that. :wink:Is that a warning to not comment on some 'ill" (your words!) business policy? Wow, impressive!A big praise to those devs which don't care about such warnings or the codex it arises from but focus on their business basis, their customers.

I have purchased MANY games in the last 20 years for the computer in which I was provided no support forum, but rather a FAQ or otherwise, or some support database. Heck, often in the old days you were provided with a local long distance number for support inquiries or bulletin board systems. Many have absolutely nothing... and still do.So you can't hit that little "post" button on the support forum. Considering the company is ran by just a "few" people, one specifically who wears most of the hats over there, doesn't mean he has time to answer the 2,000 questions that are answered directly in the manual, or have been answered many times on the support forum. It's not cost effective. That said, if customers feel they have a support question that needs answered, VRS has stated that they still provide e-mail support. Nuff' said.You and I likely agree to disagree on this. I just don't understand why everyone is freaking out over what I feel is a very reasonable and minor request. Even IF you got the boxed product, and forked out the small cash for the ability to post on the support forum, you still are getting a great deal on the product. Let me be very clear in that VRS doesn't make much money on this policy, and they never had any intention to in the first place.I digress. I simply feel there are much more important things to rant about, especially considering the absolute top class quality of the VRS products.RE Ron. You've been around the business a long time. I'm still a relative new comer. Cheers and beers mate. At the end of the day, we're all trying to put food on our plate with the meager funds we get from this business. Thankfully I dearly love my work. I can understand why so many have become embittered over the years and/or left the industry.

[CoolP 283]

I have purchased MANY games in the last 20 years for the computer in which I was provided no support forum, but rather a FAQ or otherwise, or some support database. Heck, often in the old days you were provided with a local long distance number for support inquiries or bulletin board systems. Many have absolutely nothing... and still do.

You've just warned your fellow commercial members not to talk about the policy of other companies (which basis has that warning by the way?) and now offer an across-the-board statement about 'MANY games (=corresponding companies) in the last 20 years'?Once again, impressive show but maybe not as close to conviction as intended. So where's the point of that statement besides requesting things from others which you don't seem to be able to fulfil yourself?The people getting in trouble with that 'low price, no speak' policy of VRS aren't angry about the (maybe understandable) reasons behind all this. They are in trouble because you buy the thing and then get explained that you are second class only.An open policy would clearly and unmistakeable state the support downside (e. g. on the box) and a modern policy would get rid of those strange box selling methods at all and establish a general and full spectrum support for valid customers.This isn't a new thing to be done and it also isn't a new fact that this establishes happy customers and good sales together with a cutback on 'pro piracy' reasons. Watch those other companies you've just warned about speaking (funny coincidence by the way) and catch their role model. :(

[Jaggyroad Films 4]

You've just warned your fellow commercial members not to talk about the policy of other companies (which basis has that warning by the way?) and now offer an across-the-board statement about 'MANY games (=corresponding companies) in the last 20 years'?Once again, impressive show but maybe not as close to conviction as intended. So where's the point of that statement besides requesting things from others which you don't seem to be able to fulfil yourself?

I was't complaining about it, nor making judgement about such things, and frankly I have little to no discernible opinion of it. It was simply a "grounding" comment in regards to how our industry is held to a different standard by some of it's customers.

The people getting in trouble with that 'low price, no speak' policy of VRS aren't angry about the (maybe understandable) reasons behind all this. They are in trouble because you buy the thing and then get explained that you are second class only.An open policy would clearly and unmistakeable state the support downside (e. g. on the box) and a modern policy would get rid of those strange box selling methods and establish a general and full spectrum support for valid customers.

I'm not advocating that companies can walk on their customers, however companies have the right to protect themselves as they see fit within the standards of their local and national laws. In this case however, next time I'll simply ask the respective developers to paint it all over the box in red, because clearly people cannot think for themselves by your standards.

This isn't a new thing to be done and it also isn't a new fact that this establishes happy customers and good sales. Watch those other companies you've just warned about speaking (funny coincidence by the way) and catch their role model. :(

A good majority of the companies in this industry I work directly for, have worked for, or work parallel with. Mind you, I work in marketing, and I am sure you have likely purchased quite a few products I have in some way been associated with. I seem to understand my job quite well, thank you.

[CoolP 283]

Next time I'll simply ask the respective developers to paint it all over the box in red, because clearly people cannot think for themselves by your standards.I seem to understand my job quite well, thank you.

Relating these two statements leads to a 'very confident guy' viewpoint. Sometimes, this is the beginning of the end, but sometimes it leads to an "aha" moment and a will to get better thereafter. Hoping for the last part to happen and leaving some greetings from the dumb customer side (which is mine, I've trained hard there ) for you. That text size from your previous post may well be ok for that new box design.But, as said, the far better option for establishing happy customers is to get rid of cheap boxes (the company doesn't earn much there, stated by VRS itself) and 'to look for' texts (none on the box though) and go the way the other successful companies are already going. Buying = valid customer = full support. A class society showing that much unhappy outcome (look at the thread) can't be called sucessful at all, am I right?Also, enabling such strange things may deliver pro arguments for staying away from any legal offer at all. Just sayin'.I saw some commercial members very helplessly arguing on how to fight piracy. With that strange two-class-policy, you may dig your own hole there and can't rely on any fancy protection to get you out then.

[Jaggyroad Films 4]

I'm dodging the conversation at this point. Capitalism will determine if it works or not in the end, and it seems to be working well enough thus far. I'll leave the rest of the thread followers to their own decisions. I have spoken my mind and defended my dog in the fight.

[David Roch 1,975]

Sorry guys but it's time to lock this thread before it goes south.Thanks for understanding.