Hello everybody,There is something I just do not get about planning my flights. Here is a situation I got myself into this evening:I planned a short flight from Aarhus (Denmark) to Oslo (Norway). Here it is: EKAH RADIS UP615 TOR ENGM. And this is how I came up with it:1. Aarhus has no SID so I chose to fly direct from the airport to the nearest Waypoint on the airway I wanted to follow. (RADIS)2. From there I followed an airway (UP615) that led me to a point from which I could enter an appropriate STAR for ENGM. (TOR)3. Now I have to pick a STAR and that is where my problem begins. For ENGM there are different STARs for different runways. So I assumed that since the runway in use is dependent on the direction of the wind you don't know what STAR you will have to use until you hear from ATIS or ATC what the active runway is. So I decided not to choose the STAR. I printed out the two possible STARs for my flight and decided to tune into ATIS or ATC upon arriving at TOR. 5. But at TOR of course I was still way out of reach of ENGM ATIS or ATC. So I did not know what STAR to pick...Where did I go wrong? How does this work in real life?Thanks in advance,Peter

Just pick the Star you want for a given runway and when ATC contacts you, if necessary, request the runway you want.In real life you must do what ATC instructs you to do.

I have suffered from the same problem.I am not sure what is done in real life, but I do the following.Pick a STAR based on the runway that may be used considering current wind conditions.Fly the STAR and if the runway changes, then at the end of the STAR (or near to it) reposition for the new runway. However, 9 times out of 10 the runway will not change.Hope this helps.

Ok I admit right away I haven't really checked your routing or any of the charts/procedures involved but I still wanted to chime in real quick because I see this question arise on a regular basis. A STAR, especially in Europe, is actually never really flown in real life. They are more or less considered to be lost COMM procedures. Usually you'd file a STAR in the flight plan (or maybe even just the last fix of your route), and in case of lost COMM you'd fly the STAR to the IAF, then the approach, so the controller kinda gets to know where you're going. The only "STARs" that are flown more often are those FMS/RNAV transitions. Anyways, in real life you almost never ever get to fly a STAR, because at some point the controller will give you vectors. I guess they like to handle the planes themselves as much as possible during the descent/approach phase.

Maybe the big picture helps explain this. SIDS, STARS, flightplans, etc, are really designed with Radio Communication failure in mind. With these procedures, ATC knows where you are going to be and when. SIDS/STARS help on another level with traffic flow. But as Badderjet mentioned appropriately, in the real world, rare is it that you fly the entire SID or STAR.If you wish to fly the SIDS and STARS beginning to end, get rid of ATC, ultimately.In realworld ops, most of the time? You are simply vectored to a 2.5 (there about) mile turn onto final, just before the FAF on any given approach. Traffic load dictates. It really depends on that. For Major Metro Airports, I.E. Dallas TX USA, SIDS and STARS are used much more. However even then, it is rare that one would fly the entire SID or STAR.I hope this might give you insight to the real world part of your question! Keep the digitally enhanced "greasy" side down at all times!Take Care. Jet

Just pick the Star you want for a given runway and when ATC contacts you, if necessary, request the runway you want.In real life you must do what ATC instructs you to do.

Err...not really.Since part of the legal documents to begin a flight is appropriate weather information, i.e.: Weather reports for departure, arrival and alternate airports, you already know which runway will most likely be in use. Plan according to this information. That's how it's done in real life. By no means you "must do what ATC instructs you to do", you can always decline an ATC instruction, provided you have a good reason for it.

SIDS, STARS, flightplans, etc, are really designed with Radio Communication failure in mind.

Absolutely not. SID's and STAR's are designed to reduce radio communications (hence, reducing frequency "saturation") by simplifying departure and arrival clearances. VFR flightplans do nothing regarding comm failure as you are to land wherever you want. Additionally, SID's and STAR's are also designed to provide safe means for an aircraft to depart and approach an airport without visual references providing proper ground and obstacle clearance.Bottom line, how to choose a STAR? Check the weather at your destination airport, this enables you to judge which runway will most likely be in use. Check the airway you are approaching the airport from and see if there's a STAR from that airway. There you go. If there's not a STAR for any given airway, choose an airway that leads to the VOR that serves as an approach aid for that airport. There should be a holding pattern in that VOR. Enter the hold, descent to the proper altitude and fly the ILS, VOR, NDB or whatever approach. DoneBest regards

Most SID/STAR procedures have one or more 'exit/entry' waypoints defined. For a SID it would be an exit waypoint, for a STAR it would be an entry waypoint.You should be planning your flight to utilize those.

A lot of big airports actually do have the stars built in. On approach with a filed flight plan, default atc tells you what runway, tell them change the approach, and select the ils, and it might have a transition listed after that. Select the transition, and request the approach, atc will then clear you to that transition. Usually I just ignore default atc, from the wrong runways to nagging you if you don't pass a waypoint right on line and tell you to turn around, it's an annoyance.

Thanks everyone!

It is unwise to generalise about the use of STARs/SIDs. This varies country by country and airport by airport. At major airports in the UK STARs and SIDs are generally mandatory.At Heathrow EGLL the UK AIP states:"1. Arrival Routesa. Standard Arrival Routes (STARs) for aircraft inbound via the ATS Route System are detailed at AD2-EGLL-7-1 to 7-13.b. Aircraft inbound other than via the ATS Route System:i. Aircraft inbound to London Heathrow Airport direct from the London FIR will be required to use the procedures for flights via the ATS Route System...."All Heathrow STARs are identified by the hold at which they terminate. there are 3 Terminal Holding Fixes at Biggin (BIG), Bovingdon (BNN), Lambourne (LAM) and Ockham (OCK). Aircraft can be radar vectored from any hold to land on any runway and so the choice of STAR doesn't depend on the runway in use. It depends on the relationship between the last airway flown and the initial fix forming the STAR. Some STARs have several initial fixes so that there are 6 STARs serving the Biggin hold identified as BIG 3B, BIG 3C, BG3D, BIG 1E BIG1F BIG1G. As an example, BIG 3B is for arrival via airways UT420 and T420 to ALESO.UK ATS will reject a departing flight plan from an airport with published SIDs unless one is included.Also in the UK under IFR the rules state:Compliance with air traffic control clearance and notified procedures36 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), the commander of the aircraft shall fly in conformity with:(a) the air traffic control clearance issued for the flight, as amended by any further instructions given by an air traffic control unit; and, unless he is otherwise authorised by the appropriate air traffic control unit;(b) the instrument departure procedures notified in relation to the aerodrome of departure; and© the holding and instrument approach procedures notified in relation to the aerodrome of destination.STARs/SIDs are primarily designed to facilitate traffic flow: not as has been claimed to deal with missed communications. Also, in the UK SIDs are noise preferential routes and, although ATC can instruct an aircraft to diverge from a STAR or SID, it will not divert an aircraft from a DID at at height of less than 4000ft except for safety reasons.