Sounds about right to me too.So - although something like this has *never* happened in the real world (and would most likely result in a fireball), it is eminently possible that there are simmers who'd be able to tackle Patrick's challenge and prevail. It's a shame nobody took him up on it!I was thinking on booking some time at Cranebank for the BA Flight Simulator Experience for my 40th - though I think I'll be wanting a few more hours with the FSX 737 first :(

Speaking of the pros scathing - When I was going through my PPL lessons, I toured my local tower and spoke with the controllers. Having been a VATSIM instructor for a long time, I was far more excited to chat with the controllers and be in the tower than a typical student would have been. I was speaking to the supervisor on duty at the time and I got about two or three sentences into an explanation of what VATSIM was and she rolled her eyes, said, "thats the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard," and walked away from me. Another time, I was doing a "sit-along" with a Denver Center controller. He was a very nice guy and answered every question I had but I ran into a brick wall when I started talking about VATSIM, although he wasn't rude about it.Of course on the flip-side, there are many real-world controllers and ATPs on VATSIM that are incredibly helpful.

Speaking of the pros scathing - When I was going through my PPL lessons, I toured my local tower and spoke with the controllers. Having been a VATSIM instructor for a long time, I was far more excited to chat with the controllers and be in the tower than a typical student would have been. I was speaking to the supervisor on duty at the time and I got about two or three sentences into an explanation of what VATSIM was and she rolled her eyes, said, "thats the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard," and walked away from me. Another time, I was doing a "sit-along" with a Denver Center controller. He was a very nice guy and answered every question I had but I ran into a brick wall when I started talking about VATSIM, although he wasn't rude about it.Of course on the flip-side, there are many real-world controllers and ATPs on VATSIM that are incredibly helpful.

That's somewhat ridiculous. Given a reasonable simulation and lots of practice, you can develop some of the same skill patterns - this is so in the case of the controller and the pilot. Now, the responsibility they bear IS REAL and this is why they are compensated accordingly, but the skills can be approximated. Use ATCSim (for example) 10 hours a day, day after day, and you'll develop the perception and anticipation required. Use PMDG or LDS day after day and you'll get some of the required flows down. No, it won't be perfect, but you'll have a fighting chance if you suddenly had to do it.Of course an ATC specialist or an ATP-rated commercial airline pilot are going to aggrandize the complexity of their jobs: it is essentially why they are well compensated. However, computers and simulation are the way they themselves are tested, so you too can approximate some of the same tests.Let's respect the fine job they do, but let's not elevate their jobs to immortal status. What these people do, day-by-day, far exceeds what a simulator can capture, but a simulator is where they prove their mettle usually. Many airline pilots have never experienced anything but normal ops for their entire career. And ATC specialists usually have many eyes on the problem. I do not attempt to relegate what they do here, but I also don't believe that a well-studied and well-practiced enthusiast is totally out of the game either. The truth is in the middle. Also, the day-in/day-out professional is not as likely to choke on the shock of a situation like an enthusiast might. But you never know... sometimes people really excel under fire.

I do think that a simmer, if they had enough time in a high fidelity sim of that specific aircraft, may be able to land it, provided they were a serious simmer, and not just an instant pilot.

Speaking as a real pilot: I can say that using the Msoft sim is not very realistic.1. You are sitting at your desk and not in a cockpit.2. There are too many distractions long list-----wife, children, telephone, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,3. There is no realism. Because it isn't "real" mistakes don't matter.4. Cockpit workload is a tiny fraction of the real thing.5. Spacial awareness. If a real pilot doesn't have this he is doomed!6. It is absolutely essential to have all round vision both of the cockpit and the world outside (Having done many real landings at Kai Tak I can tell you that the sim is almost impossible!!!7. An inexperienced person with full guidance inside a real simulator can and does make tolerable landings and take-offs. see here8. But put in a real aeroplane without any real flying experience the chances of survival are practically nil.Only a real pilot would be able to make a go of it. Because he/she would know what to do and how to adapt to an unfamiliar cockpit enviroment. By that I mean turning everything off having to fly by the seat of your (English) pants. Understanding all the subconcious messages the aircraft is sending to you and reacting to them "before" the aircraft has arrived at that point. Being a pilot is not like driving a car. It is at once far more complex and far more relaxing!!!vololiberista

Only a real pilot would be able to make a go of it. Because he/she would know what to do and how to adapt to an unfamiliar cockpit enviroment. By that I mean turning everything off having to fly by the seat of your (English) pants. Understanding all the subconcious messages the aircraft is sending to youvololiberista

what?As an instrument student this is exactly the opposite of anything logical. I wouldn't touch the AP disconnect on a boeing given the circumstance..... (At least not until short final on an ILS, or if I were advised the airplane met CATIII requirements, currency, and there was a CATIII ILS available - I would do that and not fiddle with it at all). I definitely wouldn't fly a boeing seat of the pants style.. No way Jos

"3. There is no realism."Well, that's going a bit too far.FWIW, as a student pilot, I've been practicing timed legs (while using a "real" flightplan I make, using winds of my choosing, with an E6B) for my real-world flights, and it helps. As far as navigation goes, it's pretty good practice.Running TileProxy doesn't hurt, either...

"3. There is no realism."Well, that's going a bit too far.FWIW, as a student pilot, I've been practicing timed legs (while using a "real" flightplan I make, using winds of my choosing, with an E6B) for my real-world flights, and it helps. As far as navigation goes, it's pretty good practice.Running TileProxy doesn't hurt, either...

If you think that sitting in front of a desktop screen playing with a mouse etc etc is in any way close to real flying then you need to think again very very very seriously!!!vololiberista

what?As an instrument student this is exactly the opposite of anything logical. I wouldn't touch the AP disconnect on a boeing given the circumstance..... (At least not until short final on an ILS, or if I were advised the airplane met CATIII requirements, currency, and there was a CATIII ILS available - I would do that and not fiddle with it at all). I definitely wouldn't fly a boeing seat of the pants style.. No way Jos

vololiberista,I do fly for real, and don't suggest it's like "real flying", nor do I expect it to be. However, as I said, it's helpful (to me), and it's certainly more real than trying to practice on paper.... especially with navigation.So... you just keep doing what you're doing, and I'll keep practicing navigation. :)

Please define:Vestibular disorientation.I'll be honest with you, No I can't fly by the seat of my pants. I NEED visual Cues to fly an airplane. I am not like an insect, I do not have built in gyroscopic-like devices which detect my motion in space which gives me orientation. I have to have visual cues. motion helps, but it's secondary to visual information. - Both IFR and VFR.Close your eyes with a safety pilot and fly by the seat of your pants, you will drive yourself into the ground with your only savior being the safety pilot.. Microsoft is great for the visual aspect of flight, interpretation of instruments as well as looking out the windows. It's a great tool for Airmen.

If you think that sitting in front of a desktop screen playing with a mouse etc etc is in any way close to real flying then you need to think again very very very seriously!!!vololiberistaIf you are not capable of flying an aircraft by the seat of your pants then don't even try it!vololiberista

Please define:Vestibular disorientation.I'll be honest with you, No I can't fly by the seat of my pants. I NEED visual Cues to fly an airplane. I am not like an insect, I do not have built in gyroscopic-like devices which detect my motion in space which gives me orientation. I have to have visual cues. motion helps, but it's secondary to visual information. - Both IFR and VFR.Close your eyes with a safety pilot and fly by the seat of your pants, you will drive yourself into the ground with your only savior being the safety pilot.. Microsoft is great for the visual aspect of flight, interpretation of instruments as well as looking out the windows. It's a great tool for Airmen.

"Flying by the seat of your pants" means flying instinctively. Knowing instinctively by feel what the aircraft wants to do. Ask yourself these questions:Can you recover in IMC at night from a spiral dive. An inverted spiral dive. A spin. And can you recover from these upsets to within 10 degrees of your original heading. If you can do these instinctively then I would trust you to jump into the P1 seat of any jet airliner and attempt to land it!!vololiberista

Nope,Neither the FAA or ICAO seem to think it's a problem that I can't though (I take it this is some sort of spin thing? I've never heard the term)For that matter, neither do they care if an ATPL can't. I definitely trust the airline pilot to land it, regardless of if he can do inverted spiral dives +/- 10 degrees of heading.Ryan

"Flying by the seat of your pants" means flying instinctively. Knowing instinctively by feel what the aircraft wants to do. Ask yourself these questions:Can you recover in IMC at night from a spiral dive. An inverted spiral dive. A spin. And can you recover from these upsets to within 10 degrees of your original heading. If you can do these instinctively then I would trust you to jump into the P1 seat of any jet airliner and attempt to land it!!vololiberista

You have never heard of the term "spin?"It just goes to show doesn't it, how much more stringent the regulations are in the UK and Europe!!!!! Go and find a competent instructor and ask him/her to take you up and demonstrate one to you. Yopu will be suitably impressed. If not then forget about flying.Read "Flying the Big Jets" by D.P. Davies. When this book was in print it was a standard text book for BOAC/British Airways pilots. In the UK if you can't fly your aeroplane in your sleep they simply do not want to know you!!!!!!!!!vololiberista

Never heard the term inverted spiral dive, :(And it shows for very little, you should Never ever ever inadvertently get the airplane into a spin let alone a stall. I'd like to see you spin "The big Jets" below about 10,000. I'm sure you'd find it really made no difference what the UK, or europe did (The UK is doing their best to get rid of general aviation all together, I see a rediculous number of pilots come here then convert there because it's simply way too much money to get your license in the UK (Due to elevated fees and prices, Not so much hourly requirements). Your statement on stringency, and it's probable impact on safety has little bearing in truth.

You have never heard of the term "spin?"It just goes to show doesn't it, how much more stringent the regulations are in the UK and Europe!!!!! Go and find a competent instructor and ask him/her to take you up and demonstrate one to you. Yopu will be suitably impressed. If not then forget about flying.Read "Flying the Big Jets" by D.P. Davies. When this book was in print it was a standard text book for BOAC/British Airways pilots. In the UK if you can't fly your aeroplane in your sleep they simply do not want to know you!!!!!!!!!vololiberista

"inverted spiral dive" - That's a spiral climb, no? :( I'd love to see an airliner spin (under safe, controlled circumstances, naturally...) Will have to look that one up.BTW I -do- have internal gyroscopes, but they only orient me toward pie. Mmmm, pie.