Surfing idly about the web today I stumbled across salon.com's "Ask the Pilot" blog and have been reading quite a few of the articles and some of the material is fascinating and well-written. I did particularly enjoy this piece and know the Avsim crowd will too:-

Of course, the only people more insufferable than assistant professors and aviation consultants are the desktop simulator buffs who think they can hop into a 767 and fly it like a pro. They were given some false confidence back in 2007 when the popular show "MythBusters" tried to find out if a nonpilot could land a plane. They got themselves a NASA simulator stripped down to represent a "generic commercial airliner" -- which is to say a rather unrealistic one. A seasoned pilot, stationed in an imaginary control tower, carefully instructs the hosts via radio. On the first try, they crash. The second time, they make it.But all they really did, essentially, is land a make-believe airplane in a contrived, tightly controlled experiment.To be fair, the question of whether a nonpilot could land an actual jetliner depends somewhat on the meaning of "land." Do you mean from just a few hundred feet over the ground, in ideal weather, with the plane stabilized and pointed toward the runway, with someone talking you through it? Or do you mean the whole full-blown arrival, from cruising altitude to touchdown, requiring all sorts of maneuvering, programming, communicating and configuring?You've got a fighting chance with the former. The touchdown will be rough at best, but with a little luck you won't become a cartwheeling fireball. But the scenario most people envision is the one where, droning along at cruise altitude, the crew suddenly becomes incapacitated, and only a brave passenger, who has perhaps a little desktop sim time under his belt, can save the day. He'll strap himself in, and with the smooth coaching of an unseen voice over the radio, try to bring her down.Try this a thousand times and I reckon you'll have a thousand crashes.Don't believe me? Let's try it. I need a willing participant who does not have a pilot's license or any formal flight training. We'll rent out a full-motion Boeing simulator and the instructor will set things up for 35,000 feet, somewhere over the middle of the United States. Ready, set, go. In you come and sit down. The rest is up to you. All of it.If you crash, you foot the bill and I get to mock you in Salon. If you make it, I foot the bill and write a five-page retraction carefully detailing your heroics.Any takers?

Don't ask me if I agree with him, I'm not a hardcore simmer and if you put me at the controls of a real aircraft (of any size) I'd crash it.The whole post is here: http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/?page=6 and Patrick's site is here: www.askthepilot.com.Kind regardsDave

Here's my two-cents, re: a simmer with no real piloting experience having to take over at FL350:Depends on how he went about his simming. If he's the "Instant Airline Captain", who loaded the sim; jumped right into jets, and kept crashing until actually put an airliner on a runway in one piece.. constantly asking questions that should have asked as he was cutting his teeth in a training aircraft; he's doomed.If he went about simming realistically... did his research; learned basic aircraft control and intrument interpretation properly.. drilled on the basics of holding headings/altitudes.. learned pitch/power relationships, and learned what a power-curve is... learned navigation from VFR basics up to radio navigation; one, logical step at a time... took the time to learn about everything from flight-planning to aircraft-loading.. could get his virtual C172 from one airport to another without a GPS, fly a realistic approach/missed (knowing what he's doing and why).. all before moving on to the bigger/faster stuff... He just might have a chance at getting talked down.An experienced GA pilot and avid simmer, would have a decent chance at getting talked down from FL350.

FWIW a friend of our is a commercial transport pilot, and although we've chatted about his job I have *never* mentioned to him that I like flight simming as to be honest I'd feel like a plonker. I can imagine the reaction would be scathing also :( I also kind of think that trying to control a complex virtual aircraft, single-handed via mouse and keyboard, and only seeing a limited representation of the virtual world through a small monitor is surely fundamentally different to - and maybe even harder than - flying a real aircraft. In the real world you have actual physical controls in front of you, a good field of view, depth perception and sensation of speed/movement. I don't see how a computer program can give you that and I'm quite sure those things are important - I don't know about you but although I've been driving cars for years but I find any driving game or simulation far harder to control than the real thing!

I watched that episode of Myth Busters. The guy on the "ground" did an excellent job. If such a senario should actually happen it's success or failure would depend on a number of factors, not the least of which, would be the voice in the headset. I submit most modern airliners could be flown from cruise to touchdown without touching the controls if one were instructed regarding the operation of the FMS/autopilot. However, it would be a totally different story in something like a DC-7. I suspect that would result in a divot.

FWIW a friend of our is a commercial transport pilot, and although we've chatted about his job I have *never* mentioned to him that I like flight simming as to be honest I'd feel like a plonker. I can imagine the reaction would be scathing also :( I also kind of think that trying to control a complex virtual aircraft, single-handed via mouse and keyboard, and only seeing a limited representation of the virtual world through a small monitor is surely fundamentally different to - and maybe even harder than - flying a real aircraft. In the real world you have actual physical controls in front of you, a good field of view, depth perception and sensation of speed/movement. I don't see how a computer program can give you that and I'm quite sure those things are important - I don't know about you but although I've been driving cars for years but I find any driving game or simulation far harder to control than the real thing!

Don't be so sure about the scathing... there are many an ATP pilot on Vatsim :(

I've been driving cars for years but I find any driving game or simulation far harder to control than the real thing!

Aint that the truth !

I used to help out at a flying club and I once showed a young lad round. I let him sit in the aircraft (a Katana DA20) and allowed him play with the controls. He mentioned he LOVED Flight Sim and asked some sensible questions but then he asked me if the button on the stick (that operated the radio) was the brakes. So if he was flying the Airliner we'd be finished.It's an interesting question. I did my first landing last year (in the same Katana) and it was far from easy and it took quite a few circuits till I mastered the fine art of "landing on your arse". I also had a very patient instructor sitting next to me telling me where I was going wrong/right.Now if I was sitting in an airliner, no instructor and had ONE shot at getting it on the ground I think my chances would be very very slim indeed. I

Maybe the Salon writer should read the piece at the other site wheresomeone who only ever flew desktop simulators went into a full blown airline sim anddid really well.I think some folks might make it,and I'd love to see him foot the bill and write his 5 page retraction.He does write nice.One thing many pilots tend to forget is that flying isn't rocket science anymore,it can be learned by anyone just as most people can learn how to drive a car.They are essentially bus drivers,in my view,and yes,they are highly trained professionals butthere's a lot of jobs that require the same mindset and the same set of skills,and many guys that do those jobs wouldbe able to do the airline job as well,they just chose not to.When the poo hits the fan is when they distinguish themselves because of their training and the achievedmental state by that training,but again,there's lots of other jobs that have that type of training and the associated mindset.I do know though,that I most likely would crash it myself.cheersJP.edit : spelling ... that ain't rocket science either.

Maybe the Salon writer should read the piece at the other site wheresomeone who only ever flew desktop simulators went into a full blown airline sim anddid really well.

Any chance of a link to that page?Kind regardsDave

Any chance of a link to that page?Kind regardsDave

sure,here you go.http://www.flightsim.com/main/op-ed/ed387.htmand here another onehttp://www.flightsim.com/main/op-ed/ed406.htmand this is the one I was talking about : http://www.flightsim.com/main/feature/question.htmcheersJP.

Hmm, having read the article I'm not sure I share his confidence :(

Hmm, having read the article I'm not sure I share his confidence :(

well,maybe not his confidence :( ,but d

Hello!Reading the comments in this thread reminds me of Doug White. He was the fellow who was sitting in the right seat of a King Air as a passenger with his family when the PIC suffered a heart attack and died while in flight. Although at one time he did hold a PPL, he hadn't flown very much in the intervening time. So here he was in a more complex aircraft than what he had been familiar with, and he has to land with a dead pilot in the left seat and his family behind him.I know this probably isn't a comparable situation like what the OP mentioned, but it was close.For those of you who may not be familiar with the circumstances, watch this:

Just my 2

I did some googling after you mentioned this and haven't been able to find a single documented case where a passenger with no previous experience has landed a jet after the crew was incapacitated. I'm wondering if this actually has ever happened?

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present to you...AVSIM's old thread relating to this very Salon article, on a very well discussed topic. (circa December 2007)http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=7070

Here's my two-cents, re: a simmer with no real piloting experience having to take over at FL350:Depends on how he went about his simming. If he's the "Instant Airline Captain", who loaded the sim; jumped right into jets, and kept crashing until actually put an airliner on a runway in one piece.. constantly asking questions that should have asked as he was cutting his teeth in a training aircraft; he's doomed.If he went about simming realistically... did his research; learned basic aircraft control and intrument interpretation properly.. drilled on the basics of holding headings/altitudes.. learned pitch/power relationships, and learned what a power-curve is... learned navigation from VFR basics up to radio navigation; one, logical step at a time... took the time to learn about everything from flight-planning to aircraft-loading.. could get his virtual C172 from one airport to another without a GPS, fly a realistic approach/missed (knowing what he's doing and why).. all before moving on to the bigger/faster stuff... He just might have a chance at getting talked down.An experienced GA pilot and avid simmer, would have a decent chance at getting talked down from FL350.

You forget about the third kind.Start off at age 8 as an Instant Fighter Jock, pretty much the same as your Instant Airline Captain, started waking up around their early teens and gets more serious. In the process he learns over time, figuring out how things work through observation and experimentation. Eventually joins realism squadrons and virtual airlines and starts flying more and more realistically. That person eventually becomes a serious simmer that way. In short, the person who acts like a kid as a kid, and starts getting more serious when he grows up.