I still can't find a documented instance where something like this has actually happened. Of the two cases that I could find (one of which has been mentioned in this thread already) the guy in question had trained as a pilot. In the second case, the pilot was still alive (it was the copilot who was removed from the flight deck) and the flight attendant merely assisted but had a commercial pilots license.It also seems apparent that no-one has taken Patrick up on his challenge in three years :-)

You forget about the third kind.

Nah.. He's the Instant type who ended up evolving into the Realistic type .. :( The neat thing is.. serious simming can get your mindset 1/2-way through REAL ground-school.. with some added familiarizations.

I still can't find a documented instance where something like this has actually happened. Of the two cases that I could find (one of which has been mentioned in this thread already) the guy in question had trained as a pilot. In the second case, the pilot was still alive (it was the copilot who was removed from the flight deck) and the flight attendant merely assisted but had a commercial pilots license.It also seems apparent that no-one has taken Patrick up on his challenge in three years :-)

If I had a way of going where that guy lives he can mock me all he wants for my one chance to flya level D sim with all the movements etc.I'd view that as a chance from heaven,really.Thing is,if I crash,which I will,I have to pay it myself,and well,you see,I will crash,as I have said 4 times already.

I still can't find a documented instance where something like this has actually happened. Of the two cases that I could find (one of which has been mentioned in this thread already) the guy in question had trained as a pilot. In the second case, the pilot was still alive (it was the copilot who was removed from the flight deck) and the flight attendant merely assisted but had a commercial pilots license.It also seems apparent that no-one has taken Patrick up on his challenge in three years :-)

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode94

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode94

Sorry, as I understood it the episode used a simulator. I'm actually trying to find out if there was a documented case of it happening - for real.Kind regardsDave

Sorry, as I understood it the episode used a simulator. I'm actually trying to find out if there was a documented case of it happening - for real.Kind regardsDave

Yes but as stated on the site and in the episode, even the Mythbusters could not find a single instance of it happening.

This is something that comes up regularly on flight sim forums as most people will know, and I think this comment is one of the more crucial sticking points in the scenario...

I used to help out at a flying club and I once showed a young lad round. I let him sit in the aircraft (a Katana DA20) and allowed him play with the controls. He mentioned he LOVED Flight Sim and asked some sensible questions but then he asked me if the button on the stick (that operated the radio) was the brakes.

Nevertheless, if we allow enough fuel for our heroic simmer to spend the necessary time working out where things really are in a cockpit, as opposed to fondly imagining that pressing shift and slash will arm the spoilers, all whilst the thing is comfortably flying along on the autopilot awaiting their impavid efforts, then I'm pretty sure a reasonably serious-minded simmer could probably get an airliner down in one piece with the autopilot and ILS. Providing, of course, all the systems were working properly that is. Which does beg the question, why would they need to if that was the case? But we won't let logic like that spoil a good 'what if?' Instead let's just imagine that the flight deck crew should not have had that Japanese Pugu snack prior to take off, and we'll also gloss over the part where our Playstation-toting hero can't even get into the cockpit to give it a shot, thanks to the post 911 cockpit lock world we now live in.Everyone who has ever learned to fly will remember that slightly uneasy feeling the first time they sat in a cockpit to commence lessons, no longer quite so cocky. As keen as you are en route to the airfield, when you get there it's a very different proposition from sitting in seat 22A in the cabin, and the nerves do start, and it is certainly a lot different from sitting at your PC with a nice cup of tea and a biscuit. I can remember loudly singing to myself to keep my spirits up the first time I went solo - they never show that kind of unheroic girly approach to pressure in movies LOLSo where I think most simmers would fall down, is the pressure combined with if they had to try a manual landing with no radio assistance, locating the airport visually, lining up and descending all on their own whilst putting the right amount of throttle on. I suspect many would spread the thing all over a hillside if they really tried it. But, I do know that some people tend to be naturally pretty good at landing aircraft, and it's not unreasonable to assume that some of them are simmers who happen to have never flown a real aircraft, so I'm willing to bet one or two would manage it. I'd like to think it would be the ones who sing to themselves, because I do know that works. :( Al

This is something that comes up regularly on flight sim forums as most people will know, and I think this comment is one of the more crucial sticking points in the scenario...Nevertheless, if we allow enough fuel for our heroic simmer to spend the necessary time working out where things really are in a cockpit, as opposed to fondly imagining that pressing shift and slash will arm the spoilers, all whilst the thing is comfortably flying along on the autopilot awaiting their impavid efforts, then I'm pretty sure a reasonably serious-minded simmer could probably get an airliner down in one piece with the autopilot and ILS. Providing, of course, all the systems were working properly that is. Which does beg the question, why would they need to if that was the case? But we won't let logic like that spoil a good 'what if?' Instead let's just imagine that the flight deck crew should not have had that Japanese Pugu snack prior to take off, and we'll also gloss over the part where our Playstation-toting hero can't even get into the cockpit to give it a shot, thanks to the post 911 cockpit lock world we now live in.Everyone who has ever learned to fly will remember that slightly uneasy feeling the first time they sat in a cockpit to commence lessons, no longer quite so cocky. As keen as you are en route to the airfield, when you get there it's a very different proposition from sitting in seat 22A in the cabin, and the nerves do start, and it is certainly a lot different from sitting at your PC with a nice cup of tea and a biscuit. I can remember loudly singing to myself to keep my spirits up the first time I went solo - they never show that kind of unheroic girly approach to pressure in movies LOLSo where I think most simmers would fall down, is the pressure combined with if they had to try a manual landing with no radio assistance, locating the airport visually, lining up and descending all on their own whilst putting the right amount of throttle on. I suspect many would spread the thing all over a hillside if they really tried it. But, I do know that some people tend to be naturally pretty good at landing aircraft, and it's not unreasonable to assume that some of them are simmers who happen to have never flown a real aircraft, so I'm willing to bet one or two would manage it. I'd like to think it would be the ones who sing to themselves, because I do know that works. :( Al

What if the aircraft becomes self aware and kills the pilot? I think we may need James T. Kirk guiding the plane down in that case. :(

What if the aircraft becomes self aware and kills the pilot? I think we may need James T. Kirk guiding the plane down in that case. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7DYbDoh0R8Al

I slept on it, and now I'm leaning towards the simmer having a fighting chance of beating Patrick's challenge.Earlier in the thread I said that a desktop sim doesn't give you peripheral vision, sense of speed & motion etc. So it's arguable then that when a desktop simmer (who usually has to compensate for the lack of these physical cues) is placed in a full-motion simulator they gain extra information that will help them fly more accurately, not less.If they can get over the differences of the physical cockpit layout and know their systems well they'd guide the simulator safely in sure enough. I think Patrick underestimates the detail in the procedures that hardcore simmers love and the fidelity of the systems modelling in their chosen add-ons.Me? I'm still learning to fly level turns. Ask me in a year :-)

I slept on it, and now I'm leaning towards the simmer having a fighting chance of beating Patrick's challenge.Earlier in the thread I said that a desktop sim doesn't give you peripheral vision, sense of speed & motion etc. So it's arguable then that when a desktop simmer (who usually has to compensate for the lack of these physical cues) is placed in a full-motion simulator they gain extra information that will help them fly more accurately, not less.If they can get over the differences of the physical cockpit layout and know their systems well they'd guide the simulator safely in sure enough. I think Patrick underestimates the detail in the procedures that hardcore simmers love and the fidelity of the systems modelling in their chosen add-ons.Me? I'm still learning to fly level turns. Ask me in a year :-)

This is all a moot point, as it has been done and proven in Level-D simulators before by non-pilots. Remember the Avsim Conference in Denver? There were plenty of stories of success coming out of flying and landing the United Airlines simulators there. I also have personal experience landing a Mustang and an AT-6 (While under the guidance of a qualified instructor pilot in case I did anything wrong) and I'm not a pilot. The key is that they have help from a pilot or instructor either in the air or on the ground on what to do, and in the case of a real emergency that they don't panic. There are some that will, and others that can overcome the fear, and do what needs to be done. Also that the plane's airworthiness isn't compromised by a malfunction(s) or there is questionable weather. Else the chance of success diminishes. The Mythbusters show also challenged this on a Level-D sim, the first 2 attempts from the hosts, neither of them having any experience for real or simmed, crashed both times, when no additional help was given. When they tried again this time with help from the ground, they both made a survivable landing. The instructor all added had that it would have been even easier, had he had them setup an ILS Autoland.

Not moot at all - in the challenge laid out in the Salon.com article there is no mention of any assistance from a pilot, instructor or ATC. It seemed to be pretty clear that the challenge was to be completed solo.

Not moot at all - in the challenge laid out in the Salon.com article there is no mention of any assistance from a pilot, instructor or ATC. It seemed to be pretty clear that the challenge was to be completed solo.

Actually the scenario it puts forth does include ground coaching."But the scenario most people envision is the one where, droning along at cruise altitude, the crew suddenly becomes incapacitated, and only a brave passenger, who has perhaps a little desktop sim time under his belt, can save the day. He'll strap himself in, and with the smooth coaching of an unseen voice over the radio, try to bring her down."Putting that aside, I do agree someone without any experience will most likely not succeed without help. A simmer though with experience with a FMC like the PMDG 744, or Airbus FMGC systems could do it without help, provided he didn't have to worry about traffic. Which in an emergency with an aircraft out of radio contact, ATC would clear a wide corridor for him, so that most likely would not be a problem.

Actually, I was referring to this part:-

Don't believe me? Let's try it. I need a willing participant who does not have a pilot's license or any formal flight training. We'll rent out a full-motion Boeing simulator and the instructor will set things up for 35,000 feet, somewhere over the middle of the United States. Ready, set, go. In you come and sit down. The rest is up to you. All of it.

I was taking the last two sentences to literally mean - no help.

Actually, I was referring to this part:-I was taking the last two sentences to literally mean - no help.

As I said with everything else being equal, with no help a simmer who's knowledgeable with a FMC could probably land safely. Most likely the aircraft is already on autopilot flying it's flight plan. It would just be a matter of setting up the approach for an ILS landing. The safest thing would be an autoland, but some simmers could probably bring it in manually. This all assumes weather is good and the aircraft is performing normally as I stated above. Else all bets are off. Without this knowledge though, I see little chance without help.