After having read the Qualitywings 757 review and downloading/installing the 757, I noticed various new entries in the "Addon Manager" menu (FS9). These pointed to several payware scenery offers (such as Cloud 9, FSD), including "buy"-buttons. These entries have nothing to do with FS functionality and clearly serve only one purpose: To make money.To point it out clearly: such menu entries have no business to be there, they do not serve any purpose related to the product in question (here: the QW 757) nor do they enhance functionality, addon managing capability etc. On the contrary - by adding such menu items, functionality and operability of FS are actually reduced. With a "buy"-button as first entry, these menu items are not only there for mere advertising purposes (that alone would be annoying enough) but they want to rip you off your well-earned money.By installing third-party products, I do not want to run the risk of having my FS9 degraded to a carrier of adverts or purchasing incentives.While these entries can be removed more or less easily by renaming/deleting certain files, I am not sure how many FS users actually have the knowledge of where to find these files (they are stored in the "modules" folder of FS9) and what to do to get rid of them again without harming the FS installation.Third party developers that employ such policies should never be awarded a Gold Star Avsim Award, no matter of how good the product in itself might be. There has been a growing tendency lately to introduce adverts such as these "through the backdoor", which, in my view, must not be tolerated. Again: A "Buy"-menu item, or "visit our website" buttons etc., have no place within FS9, and reviewers should be more careful to note these things, and restrain their ratings if they see FS users being caught in the net of suchlike marketing policies.

These entries have nothing to do with FS functionality

That's not the case. You are assuming the program doesn't do "anything" beside allowing to purchase, because that part is the only one you, as an user, get in touch with. It's understandable that you would make such mistake, that's why we put up a FAQ in our website, to explain what it does, in addition to allowing Trials and Purchases:http://www.fsdreamteam.com/faq.htmlRead the "What are the other functions of the Addon Manager? Could the scenery be programmed in order not to use it?" paragraph.Those are the functions used by sceneries, but there are other useful features offered by airplane developers as well. For example, it gives access to several in-memory variables that are not usually accessible with the Gauge SDK, similar to what FSUIPC does, which can be useful to improve performances, like for example an helper that will fix the FS9 bug of having the Gauge Update routing called twice when the same Gauge is instantiated both in the 2D and in the VC. Or the ability to be called back by the Addon Manager itself at regular intervals, in order to handle a general simulation update routine that is not tied to the Gauges, preventing such embarassing bugs like internal simulation variables not updated when the Gauges are not visible, because the user flies using the external view.The Cloud9 Phantom and MB339, for example, used all those features quite extensively, which is why they had such good performances in spite they had quite complex *analog* GDI+ Gauges, and lots of them on screen (something that no other developer has still achieved so far, GDI+ is typically only used for glass panels). They wouldn't be able to perform in that way, without the use of the Addon Manager.

While these entries can be removed more or less easily by renaming/deleting certain files, I am not sure how many FS users actually have the knowledge of where to find these files (they are stored in the "modules" folder of FS9) and what to do to get rid of them again without harming the FS installation.

When Uninstalling a product that comes with the Addon Manager using the one and only correct way, which is obviously through the Windows Control Panel, a question "Do you want to remove the Addon Manager" is made. By replying Yes, every file related to it will be removed. There's also a confirmation warning that alerts that, by removing the Addon Manager, other installed products that are using it, will stop working. So, everything is in the clear, there's no need to guess which files to remove: if one doesn't need the Addon Manager anymore the standard Uninstaller will take care of it.It has to be an option because, since the Addon Manager is shared between several products, it would have been wrong to remove it automatically when uninstalling. Suppose you need to uninstall the QW757, if the uninstaller would automatically remove the Addon Manager without asking first, all FSDT and Cloud9 product would stop working. Although Windows does allow for .dll reference counting, is not something very reliable, since it can easily break if an user manually remove files so, it's better ask first.If you install an airplane that comes and requires FSUIPC, it would be wrong if its uninstaller automatically removed FSUIPC as well without at least asking first. Normally, uninstallers don't even give an option to do this, and FSUIPC it's a .DLL in the modules folder that an user might not know how to remove. Exactly like the Addon Manager...

With a "buy"-button as first entry

This is just not correct: first, there's no Buy "button" on FS9, but there's a sub-menu, and the "Buy" sub-menu is not on the first level, but is nested 3 levels below, and it's not even the first entry, the About is. In order to PURCHASE a product you need to do go through 10 selections, which 3 of them needed just to SEE the Buy option.

On the contrary - by adding such menu items, functionality and operability of FS are actually reduced

Not true. When you are running a product that doesn't require the Addon Manager, it's doesn't do anything so, no FS9 functionality is ever "reduced". In case of the QualityWings, which is an airplane, this is even more obvious: it's the 757 Gauge that "wakes up" the Addon Manager when it starts. If you use another airplane that doesn't need it, the Addon Manager will just stay there, waiting from someone to call it. If you are flying outside the range of a scenery that requires the Addon Manager, it will not do anything. It will start doing its own things only when you enter in the scenery range (which is usually 8-10 nm around the airport) of a scenery that is requesting its services.Of course, there's a menu. But the menu is opened only BY THE USER. Which means, it's a concious decision to use it or not. It's not as if the program would do anything without your consempt. The Addon Manager doesn't do anything in the background if a product doesn't know about it, it doesn't connect to the internet except the *first* time a product is activated (the activation is then stored in the Windows registry), it doesn't present advertising or other messages on screen automatically.I wonder how this is different than, let's say, FSUIPC, which can be used by an airplane for its own needs, and it ALSO adds a menu, allowing you to register FSUIPC itself. So, by your own definition, this should also be sanctioned, because the airplane that uses FSUIPC is also acting as possible "advertizing" vehicle, luring the user into upgrading FSUIPC to the Register version.In any case, the fact the Addon Manager presents other products in the list, it's because there's only ONE Addon Manager that handles several products by several publishers, which is way more efficient that having, for example, a PMDG Module for the Pmdg airplanes, a Wilco module for the Wilco airplane, a Level-D module for the Level-D airplanes, an Aerosoft module for their sceneries, etc. Exactly as in case of the Addon Manager, PART of those module reasone d'etre is to handle the protection, but you might not noticed it, because they also have managing features on top of that, which you interact with so, you get the idea they are more useful. The Addon Manager is just as useful, but not to you directly as an user, but to the Gague or Scenery developer, which means it's more similar to the freeware FSUIPC, were you can't interact much with it, but it offers many services to developers under the hood.It seems that you have fallen in the usual trap of judging the Addon Manager functions, only by looking to what it does with its own menus. So, let's suppose that, in order not "worry" users like you, we decided to do something like:- Not installing our own version of the Addon Manager, which is obviously the one and the same as all our FSDT sceneries (and Cloud9 too)- In place of the standard Addon Manager, since QualityWings doesn't offer a Trial version so the Purchase buttons are not really required by them, we could have created a special QualityWings version of it, which would include exactly the same functions to handle Gauge additional services AND the product protection, but without having any user interface and without adding any new menu. A "stealth" module, basically.I guess that you might not noticed it and not complained about it, because it didn't add its own menu so, what you don't see, you can't fear...However, this solution would have been inefficent because, supposed you decided to use the QW757 on an FSDT or Cloud9 scenery: you would end up having BOTH Addon Managers running and working at the same time, because the scenery needs and calls into the regular version, and the QW757 would then call into their own version. This might made you happier, but it wouldn't be very smart since, if *every* developer using the Addon Manager would then want his own customized version, in order not to worry users about "advertizing" other products, FS9 would had to load ALL the different modules at start, modules that all do basically the same thing and taking memory, when a single module could have done it much more efficently.So, opposite to what you said, having a single module that "advertize" other products (if you can call "advertising" the menu containing entries for all products handled by it), is the more efficent way of doing it, because there's no uneeded duplication of features, and the memory is taken only by one module.You simply need to keep in mind the module does additional work and provide other services to developers, which are beyond the product purchase/activation and protection. Of course, the extent of its usage varies depending on the product but, even if a scenery or an airplane used even only one small feature of it, this would be even a better reason not to have a specific module written for that product and, instead, use a single .dll across several publishers and products, at least the memory taken is taken only once.

A "Buy"-menu item, or "visit our website" buttons etc., have no place within FS9, and reviewers should be more careful to note these things, and restrain their ratings if they see FS users being caught in the net of suchlike marketing policies.

All Aerosoft products have a module that show links to their Website or to the product documentation, exactly like the Addon Manager, yet several of them got Gold Star Award in the past, and nobody complained about it. The "Buy" option the Addon Manager has in addition, it's justifed by the fact that many products using it are distributed as Try-before-buy full versions that can be unlocked directly within Flight sim without downloading anything extra. This is very convenient for users, because it's possible to install a Trial, use it and unlock it, without even exiting from Flight sim, with a wait time of a few seconds from the purchase to the scenery activation, without having to wait for an email containing a Serial Number, and without having to type it, since the insertion of the Serial Number and its activation is immediate and automatic during the purchase process.Of course, some users would rather purchase on a Web page (most common case, people purchasing with a computer that doesn't have Flight sim installed, maybe from the office), wait for the email with their, Serial Number, typing the Serial Number, etc. This is the traditional way and it IS an option with the Addon Manager as well, but is not fair asking everyone to renounce the convenience of being able to unlock a product in Trial more easily without any waiting, just becase you don't like to see a "Buy" option.To be more clear, if you think having all the interface of the purchase inside Flight sim takes any valuable memory and/or resources, that's not the case either, because that interface IS NOT part of the Addon Manager itself, but is handled by the Esellerateengine.dll, that is not an FS9 module that stays in memory as long FS9 is running, but is dynamically loaded ONLY when you are actually purchasing something, and is dynamically discarded after the purchase is finished so, all those code is not there when is not needed and is not taking any system memory and/or resources.Offering a Trial feature, however, is decided by the developer on a product by product basis (QW decided against it), but of course one can't complain for the ability to unlock the other products that DO have a Trial, for the aformentioned reason the most efficent way of doing this, is to have just one module able to handle multiple product from different publisher, without any redundancy.

virtuali,I appreciate your view, and, indeed, learned a lot through your reply.I was, however, not questioning the basic function of the addon manager. I does serve a purpose, and a good and necessary one.What I am criticising is the (mis-)use of this functionality for advertising, or purchasing, purposes. The fact that "everybody" does it (you are naming Aerosoft and others) does not justify a growing tendency by developers to wrap suchlike commercial interests into FS-related functionality.I notice with some satisfaction that you are realizing that many users become confused, "fall into traps" as you call it. Again, I am not criticising commercial interests of developers (a necessity to survive) or questioning the use of the Addon Manager. I simply to do not want a "pollution" of my FS by functions that almost entirely serve marketing interests. Keep the functionality of FS, and any supporting applications, clean and clear from any non-related functions.

but is not fair asking everyone to renounce the convenience of being able to unlock a product in Trial more easily without any waiting, just becase you don't like to see a "Buy" option.

I could argue the other way around: It is not fair to implement such features if many users get annoyed by it or confused. Again, try and keep those two functions as separate as possible. And again, please don't misunderstand my comments as basic critisicism of the good work most of you developers are doing. I just wish these issues were being mentioned, and probably openly discussed, in reviews. This would, indeed, serve a lot to prevent users from falling into traps, and would help to base each individual purchsing decision on well-founded grounds.

I think you've got a point there, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that such a feature should prevent something getting an Avsim award. Clearly the Quality Wings 757 has ticked a lot of boxes for people, so the review score does tend to reflect how well received the QW 757 has been. In addition to that, you have to remember, as much as it will strive to be a good overview of a product, any review on Avsim can never be anything other than a personal viewpoint, and if the reviewer in question doesn't have a problem with such a feature, then they wouldn't necessarily see a need to point it out as a potential annoyance.With that in mind, from a purely personal viewpoint, if I saw any buy now buttons of any kind in FS, I actually would think it was a bit cheeky, but others might not, and indeed might appreciate the convenience. I wouldn't be outraged by it, but if there were two fairly identical products and one did not feature some buy now buttons (an unlikely scenario I know), I'd go for the one that did not have them myself. Nevertheless, I wouldn't cut my nose off to spite my face and not buy a good one if that feature was in there.Al

I simply to do not want a "pollution" of my FS by functions that almost entirely serve marketing interests. Keep the functionality of FS, and any supporting applications, clean and clear from any non-related functions.

You might have a point if the Addon Manager only functions were those related to purchasing, which is not the case here, because it also does a lot more than that.The "advertising" of *other* products, is only the consequence of having a single module than handles several products together, which is made for efficiency's sake, not with the intent to advertise. The alternative would have been providing identical multiple instances of the same module for each product (becuase the scenery/gauge needs it), each one with different user interface or no interface at all, which would have been a waste of memory.

I could argue the other way around: It is not fair to implement such features if many users get annoyed by it or confused. Again, try and keep those two functions as separate as possible.

They ARE entirely separate! As I've already explained, there's no "Buying" code in the Addon Manager itself, there's only a menu entry which, if activated, will load the Esellerateengine.dll, which contains the actual purchasing routine, and that .dll is unloaded from memory when the purchase is made (or if the user exists from it without purchasing, of course) by the OS automatically.Do not assume the fact that, from your point of view they appear to be in the same program, just because there's a Buy menu entry in the Addon Manager, because that entry doesn't do anything else other that calling the Esellerate routine when selected. This means, if you are not interested in the Buy option, it's just an empty menu entry that doesn't do anything and doesn't take any extra memor. If, instead, you ARE interested, because you value the ease with a Trial can be unlocked, that extra "baggage" of the purchasing process is loaded on demand, and it goes away as soon the purchase is finished.I agree it's easy to make wrong assumption how a program works, by looking at its interface, but I assure you the Buy routine is just an empty shell, until you actually decide to use it. If you want an honest disclosure, you should be more worried about what the module does OTHER than purchasing/activating: those additional utility services.Most of the things it does in order to get the information needed by sceneries and/or gauges, are basically hacks, direct hooks into memory, calls into undocumented FS9 APIs, direct read/write of pointers in memory, etc. Lots of potentially dangerous things, the same kind of things FSUIPC routinely does to offer its services to products. However, this is all made in the background and, not having a visible UI and not being obviously related to the sales/activation process, they don't seems to bother anyone. In fact, the "Buy" button and everything related to it, is without any doubt the most clean and less potentially troublesome part of the module.

When Uninstalling a product that comes with the Addon Manager using the one and only correct way, which is obviously through the Windows Control Panel, a question "Do you want to remove the Addon Manager" is made. By replying Yes, every file related to it will be removed. There's also a confirmation warning that alerts that, by removing the Addon Manager, other installed products that are using it, will stop working. So, everything is in the clear, there's no need to guess which files to remove: if one doesn't need the Addon Manager anymore the standard Uninstaller will take care of it.It has to be an option because, since the Addon Manager is shared between several products, it would have been wrong to remove it automatically when uninstalling. Suppose you need to uninstall the QW757, if the uninstaller would automatically remove the Addon Manager without asking first, all FSDT and Cloud9 product would stop working. Although Windows does allow for .dll reference counting, is not something very reliable, since it can easily break if an user manually remove files so, it's better ask first.If you install an airplane that comes and requires FSUIPC, it would be wrong if its uninstaller automatically removed FSUIPC as well without at least asking first. Normally, uninstallers don't even give an option to do this, and FSUIPC it's a .DLL in the modules folder that an user might not know how to remove. Exactly like the Addon Manager...

I agree except for one thing, in the case of the addon manager. The uninstall program should be able to interrogate from it if other addons besides the one you are uninstalling are activated. If there are it just should leave it alone other then deactivating the uninstall addon. It should only be a user option if their are no other addons installed, in case they are using trial version of them. If you leave it up to the user, when they have other activated addons, some will inevitably make a mistake and cause themselves unnecessary problems that could be handled automatically.

I agree except for one thing, in the case of the addon manager. The uninstall program should be able to interegate from it if other addons besides the one you are uninstalling are activated

No, it can't be done this way, because it would require that each installer of every product using the Addon Manager should have knowledge of all other products using it, and verify one by one if they are installed or not. Which is of course is not possible, since it will not work for new products released after that specific installer.As I've said, Windows provides for a mechanism to supposedly fix this, the shared .dll with reference counting, where a registry entry keeps track of how many times an installer installed a .dll and how many times an uninstaller tried to remove it so, really remove it only when the reference count goes to zero. This would only work in an ideal world, if every user always use the proper uninstaller to remove a product, but it will break if one removes files manually, leading to situations when the file is removed when it shouldn't, and it's left there even when not needed anymore.Besides, how many products come with FSUIPC: are all their installers smart enough to automatically remove it ONLY if absolutely sure is not needed anymore ? In any case, uninstalling and reinstalling the Addon Manger doesn't have anything to do with the activation of the products handled by it. Activation will always stay in the Windows registry, and it can't be lost, even if the Addon Manager is removed, either by mistake or intentionally which means, nothing will bad will happen and no harm will be ever done if the Addon Manager is removed: just the other products requiring it will momentarely stop to work (exactly as if FSUIPC is removed when there are still installed products requiring it), but their activation is never touched, and they'll start working again as soon the Addon Manager is reinstalled, which was clearly announced in the confirmation message of the Uninstaller anyway.

Sorry I really have to disagree with you in my own personal opinion I never thought of the add-on manger as adverting tool. for other products its a tool for other add-ons to work and function right. but to come here and rip the gold star away from a good product because in your personal opinion the add-on manager is adversing which is not at least to me. theres nothing like flashing in the screen buy this now etc etc I definitely dont want to have a separate module for every single add-on I have. I own a few of fsdreamteam airports and own 1 from cloud9 plus the QL B757 there is no way in hell I want to separate all that I like how it is now with one easy module handling all of it like in does now.

Ok, guys, you got me (more or less) convinced. But to make it clear once again: I do not want to rip off Avsim awards well deserved. In fact, I have been a user of FS for the last, erm, 2 decades or so, and based most of my purchasing decisions on well-founded reviews, and Avsim was always on my top-list in this respect.But to all reviewers and developers out there: we all know we are increasingly becoming victims of backdoor advertising attempts. With that in mind, any honest programming should avoid confusion with customers. Never mind what's hidden behind the screen: If I spot a new Cloud9 menu item, and I know I don't own a Cloud9 product, it does make me a bit itchy. So far, I did not see a FAQ section on the QW website explaining why the Addon Manager produces certain menu entries, let alone what puroposes it serves in the background. (But this is not about QW or any other third-party developer. This is about Avsim reviews. Let's keep it clear from further discussions of Addon Manager functionality. My basic line of argument was that reviewers should sometimes take a closer look beyond mere performance, flyability, graphics etc. characteristics.)

Ok, guys, you got me (more or less) convinced. But to make it clear once again: I do not want to rip off Avsim awards well deserved. In fact, I have been a user of FS for the last, erm, 2 decades or so, and based most of my purchasing decisions on well-founded reviews, and Avsim was always on my top-list in this respect.But to all reviewers and developers out there: we all know we are increasingly becoming victims of backdoor advertising attempts. With that in mind, any honest programming should avoid confusion with customers. Never mind what's hidden behind the screen: If I spot a new Cloud9 menu item, and I know I don't own a Cloud9 product, it does make me a bit itchy. So far, I did not see a FAQ section on the QW website explaining why the Addon Manager produces certain menu entries, let alone what puroposes it serves in the background. (But this is not about QW or any other third-party developer. This is about Avsim reviews. Let's keep it clear from further discussions of Addon Manager functionality. My basic line of argument was that reviewers should sometimes take a closer look beyond mere performance, flyability, graphics etc. characteristics.)

Hi hopper99, the back door advertising gets really out of hands with allot of software these days its really insane. I agree that it should be about the review and nothing else. sometimes we get all tangled up and end up talking about something totally different. I misunderstood you on what exactly you were writing about. but I respect your opinion. and I understand now cheers.

Hi hopper99, the back door advertising gets really out of hands with allot of software these days its really insane. I agree that it should be about the review and nothing else. sometimes we get all tangled up and end up talking about something totally different. I misunderstood you on what exactly you were writing about. but I respect your opinion. and I understand now cheers.

Maybe this is a topic you should raise over at the Quality Wings forum? Perhaps they will give you either a detail explanation or make amends if alot of people are unhappy with this feature. I actually just noticed this and I have never heard anyone else make mention of this either. My menu bar has always had many options up there and it never really stood out to me personally. Normally the documentation will tell you exactly what will be installed on your system so I never the need to look around for hidden items. However, I am glad you pointed this out and I will look into this some more.***Update*** I have taken the liberty of asking the developers about this issue..I will report back when they send a response.

Ok, guys, you got me (more or less) convinced. But to make it clear once again: I do not want to rip off Avsim awards well deserved. In fact, I have been a user of FS for the last, erm, 2 decades or so, and based most of my purchasing decisions on well-founded reviews, and Avsim was always on my top-list in this respect.But to all reviewers and developers out there: we all know we are increasingly becoming victims of backdoor advertising attempts. With that in mind, any honest programming should avoid confusion with customers. Never mind what's hidden behind the screen: If I spot a new Cloud9 menu item, and I know I don't own a Cloud9 product, it does make me a bit itchy. So far, I did not see a FAQ section on the QW website explaining why the Addon Manager produces certain menu entries, let alone what puroposes it serves in the background. (But this is not about QW or any other third-party developer. This is about Avsim reviews. Let's keep it clear from further discussions of Addon Manager functionality. My basic line of argument was that reviewers should sometimes take a closer look beyond mere performance, flyability, graphics etc. characteristics.)

For the record, the Cloud9 entries are the original users of the addon-manager FSDT, which was formed after by developers that broke away from Cloud 9 also uses it Of which I believe Umberto Colapicchioni developed himself when he was with Cloud9. Then of course now Quality Wings.

For the record, the Cloud9 entries are the original users of the addon-manager FSDT, which was formed after by developers that broke away from Cloud 9 also uses it Of which I believe Umberto Colapicchioni developed himself when he was with Cloud9. Then of course now Quality Wings.

This is a response from the QW developers " QW uses the same addon manager that other FSDT products use. so they all show on the FS submenu when you open it, as all the programs use the same module."There you have it...its simply a tool that is shared by other developers that is actual to our advantage. Here is a list of Addon manager functions: * Automatic detection of the user's airplane type and front gear position recognition. This is used by the safegates, to properly adjust settings depending on airplane, without having the user to unrealistically dial COM frequencies in order to configure the gates for correct airplane type. * Objects appearing on conditions like time and season, allowing for special effects like seasonal trees, ice blocks on the airport, seasonal vehicles. * Frame rate optimizations (especially in FSX), allowing to cut object appearance when not needed, and reinstating several conditions that are not longer possible with FSX scenery SDK. * Custom ground AI objects (FSX only), allowing for good looking customized ground vehicles with proper motion and behavior on ground * Easy tweak of several performance parameters (FSX only). This is a free feature, that can be used for any scenery, even without buying any product, the FSX tweaks will always be available.A detail like this is not necessarily something worth mentioning in a review since it does not affect the products performance in anyway. It's just a module that activates and protects esellerate based products.

But to all reviewers and developers out there: we all know we are increasingly becoming victims of backdoor advertising attempts.

I have never though of myself as being a victim of attempted advertising, except for when I open the Spam folder of my email box.I just read this whole thread and while I own most of the FSDT airports and one Cloud9 airport, over the past few years of having these airports installed I have never even though about the Addon Manager as being an advertising tool. In fact, aside from when I buy a new scenery and use the Addon Manager to activate it, I never even notice all the other things available.Frankly, I think that the website where you download the sceneries or plane from is more of an adversting tool than the Addon Manager is. I dont recall any other addons I have bought either that have tried to "make" or "entice" me to buy something. In the end I am in total control of my credit/debit card and no one is going to fool me into buying something I dont want.As long as Billy Mays doesn't appear when I click the FSX icon I have nothing to worry about.