Benjamin; thank you. Your comments make sense and I appreciate the time you’ve given me.May I ask you to enlarge on your thoughts bearing the following in mind?1. The downside of not being upgradable would, I assume, fall away as I’m considering a 15” laptop rather than a desktop.2. My experience operating PC’s has been fraught with problems. The prospect of having computer less problem prone is therefore a real temptationThe purpose would be to have a mobile machine to share between my wife and me. It would be used for e-mails, surfing the Web, Games, a Windows Budget program, photography and Flight Simulation. 3. Presumably using the inbuilt “Apple Mac” (two words!) “Bootcamp” offers the best of both worlds?4. Apple claim their graphics to be superior to that of PC’s. However surely that depends on the specs of each machine?Cliff Harris

Couple things here:2 & 3: Macs ARE PCs. They have Intel CPUs and chipsets, Nvidia and ATI graphics chipsets etc. The only difference is that they come with OSX as the default operating system, which you can only get (legally) on Apple hardware. Installing Windows on one is going to give you the exact same experience you get on a "PC". The very reason you can even install Windows on one is because it's literally "PC" hardware. Apple used to use Motorola Power PC CPUs that were a different architecture and couldn't run Windows, but they've been using Intel CPUs and chipsets for about 5 years now. It's purely through marketing that they've been able to convince most of the public that what they're making somehow isn't a "PC". It most definitely is, it just runs a different operating system by default instead of Windows. If you're not even going to use OSX, I don't really see the point in buying a Macbook unless you love the aesthetic look of the machine that much to justify paying more for it vs. a PC laptop. There are a couple PC laptops that look very close to the Macbook Pro style design btw.4. They most definitely are not. No currently made Apple system will beat a top of the line PC with a GTX480 (or even SLI 480s). What Apple's probably trying to claim is that OSX's generalized graphics subsystem is better - which may be true for normal apps (the OS can do some very cool graphical things with window management on the desktop etc) but for gaming, there's absolutely no way it's true. Steam, the big PC gaming store/platform made by Valve Software, was just released for Mac last month and there's numerous reviews with benchmarks that show games running slower than they do in Windows 7 on the same Mac machine.If you do buy a Mac, I would recommend that you give OSX a shot as your main non-gaming OS - it is very good at that. Buying one just to run Windows on it doesn't make much sense to me.

Ryan: I was curious if you skimmed through my post at all, because we ended up saying almost exactly the same things, but in a slightly different way.Rudy: FSX can be run with some nice performance, for sure. I have probably the same computer as you do and I got 24FPS using the default Airbus flying around St. Maarten. Problem is, that's all default stuff. Taking the PMDG 747 around Aerosoft's Charles de Gaulle was a complete disaster, with FPS ranging from 3 - 5. So you definetely can run FSX with high settings on a early 2008 Macbook Pro, and therefore most probably also on the current series of Macbook Pros (note: only the middle and high-end one! I won't want to risk it on the low-end one), but expect to run it either with high settings and mostly default stuff, or run it at medium/low settings with addons. It seems that it's scener addons that truly kill your performance, though, although I did not try it out with FlyTampa's stuff. I should, I guess, because their stuff always has an almost non-existing FPS impact on my computer.

Couple things here:2 & 3: Macs ARE PCs. They have Intel CPUs and chipsets, Nvidia and ATI graphics chipsets etc. The only difference is that they come with OSX as the default operating system, which you can only get (legally) on Apple hardware. Installing Windows on one is going to give you the exact same experience you get on a "PC". The very reason you can even install Windows on one is because it's literally "PC" hardware. Apple used to use Motorola Power PC CPUs that were a different architecture and couldn't run Windows, but they've been using Intel CPUs and chipsets for about 5 years now. It's purely through marketing that they've been able to convince most of the public that what they're making somehow isn't a "PC". It most definitely is, it just runs a different operating system by default instead of Windows. If you're not even going to use OSX, I don't really see the point in buying a Macbook unless you love the aesthetic look of the machine that much to justify paying more for it vs. a PC laptop. There are a couple PC laptops that look very close to the Macbook Pro style design btw.4. They most definitely are not. No currently made Apple system will beat a top of the line PC with a GTX480 (or even SLI 480s). What Apple's probably trying to claim is that OSX's generalized graphics subsystem is better - which may be true for normal apps (the OS can do some very cool graphical things with window management on the desktop etc) but for gaming, there's absolutely no way it's true. Steam, the big PC gaming store/platform made by Valve Software, was just released for Mac last month and there's numerous reviews with benchmarks that show games running slower than they do in Windows 7 on the same Mac machine.If you do buy a Mac, I would recommend that you give OSX a shot as your main non-gaming OS - it is very good at that. Buying one just to run Windows on it doesn't make much sense to me.

2 & 3: Actually that's not completely true. I'm sure you guys are looking at the consumer stuff from Apple, but at the same time thinking of the pro line of PCs (desktop towers). So what you should be taking for gaming is NOT a iMac or MacBook but Mac Pro. Having bought 5 of them, one before Intel, rest with Intel processors, the price for a similar computer is less if bought from a PC retailer. As for it also being a PC, just take a look inside the Mac Pro: the motherboard is custom made by Intel FOR the Mac Pro, the cooling power by stock is incredible, and it uses EFI instead of BIOS, which not even Windows 7 supports yet. As for processors, there are not your usual run-o-the-mill Core2Duo or i7 but really high end Xeons. Oh, one more thing: the aesthetics are important, especially if you look inside. The thing is so well built, it really shows that it is good engineering from the beginning. It's not just about pleasing the eye. It's about making good, products, which everyone should be doing, but don't.4: The GPU is one generation older then those usually found in desktop PCs but the reason of that is that the GPU needs to support EFI and most do not (because Microsoft did not push the envelope in technology yet again). So if you want an EFI compatibly GPU you have to wait about half an year before it is available from Nvidia/ATi, but then you can upgrade. Tabs: the Steam comment, Steam said clearly, the problem does not lie in the Computer they run on but the optimization they've done after compiling for OS X (much much less then for Windows). Lastly in my own experience running FS X on a Mac Pro, I've simply been blown away with FPSs higher then 100s. This with a lower end card but also with default aircraft and scenery. They are some really bad-&@($* machines (i.e. highly powerful).

Eric,Yeah I glossed over the EFI thing with Macs just because it's not something the user really sees and isn't that big of a deal. It doesn't produce any functional difference in normal use of the PC. About the Mac Pro:1. The fact that the Intel mobo is made for it doesn't mean it's not a PC - it's still at the core the same Intel X58 chipset used in a normal PC in the case of the current Mac Pro model.2. Mac Pros are very expensive compared to what it would cost to build a current generation gaming PC from parts. The absolute bare minimum config on Apple's site is $2500 and the best video card you can equip even the highest end $3500+ model with is a Radeon 4870. You can buy an aftermarket GTX285 for it, but again it's extremely expensive compared to the PC version. I'm almost positive btw that the 64 bit versions of both Vista and Win7 support EFI. The 32-bit versions don't but Microsoft actually stated this was because system vendors saw no need for it with 64-bit entering the mainstream.3. A Xeon is not going to perform better than an i7 at the same clock speed - the Xeon has support for ECC memory and physical multiprocessor support (as opposed to the single-chip multicore support on the i7), both things that aren't really of interest in a gaming PC. They're server chips. For gaming purposes a Xeon and an i7 at the same clock speed are equivalent. (Google for benchmarks) Apple uses them because the larger on-die cache helps with content creation apps - photo and video editing, audio recording and so on that Mac Pros are commonly used for. 4. Also, what is the overclocking support like with EFI? I've never really heard of people OCing Mac Pros and that's something that's a concern for FSX users, you really need to get these CPUs up near 4GHz before FSX starts performing well.

Couple things here:2 & 3: Macs ARE PCs. They have Intel CPUs and chipsets, Nvidia and ATI graphics chipsets etc. The only difference is that they come with OSX as the default operating system, which you can only get (legally) on Apple hardware. Installing Windows on one is going to give you the exact same experience you get on a "PC". The very reason you can even install Windows on one is because it's literally "PC" hardware. Apple used to use Motorola Power PC CPUs that were a different architecture and couldn't run Windows, but they've been using Intel CPUs and chipsets for about 5 years now. It's purely through marketing that they've been able to convince most of the public that what they're making somehow isn't a "PC". It most definitely is, it just runs a different operating system by default instead of Windows. If you're not even going to use OSX, I don't really see the point in buying a Macbook unless you love the aesthetic look of the machine that much to justify paying more for it vs. a PC laptop. There are a couple PC laptops that look very close to the Macbook Pro style design btw.4. They most definitely are not. No currently made Apple system will beat a top of the line PC with a GTX480 (or even SLI 480s). What Apple's probably trying to claim is that OSX's generalized graphics subsystem is better - which may be true for normal apps (the OS can do some very cool graphical things with window management on the desktop etc) but for gaming, there's absolutely no way it's true. Steam, the big PC gaming store/platform made by Valve Software, was just released for Mac last month and there's numerous reviews with benchmarks that show games running slower than they do in Windows 7 on the same Mac machine.If you do buy a Mac, I would recommend that you give OSX a shot as your main non-gaming OS - it is very good at that. Buying one just to run Windows on it doesn't make much sense to me.

Once again my thanks to guys for being so helpful. I now have a solid idea of the important Pros and Cons and, instead of sitting on the fence, I'm inclining towards the PC.I could never had taken a reasoned decision without you.With my regards......................Cliff Harris

The last thing I would do is use any mac for games. Get a nice pc for games. Even build one. They are crazy easy to build (Well there is a pretty steep learning curve). If you need help just pm me or something.

The last thing I would do is use any mac for games. Get a nice pc for games. Even build one. They are crazy easy to build (Well there is a pretty steep learning curve). If you need help just pm me or something.

And still people do it. Well, I do anyway. As I see, I have no choice. I don't have the money to buy two computers and I frankly don't want to make Windows my "serious stuff" OS. It's simply not enough to my liking to make it the OS for every day use.Cliff: Good to know you could make up your mind. I think that indeed for what you want to do with the computer, a PC is best suited. As I said: buy a Mac for the OS, not for the hardware.

If you want something other than Windows, throw Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Kubuntu on a computer. Linux Mint is even better. These days the mainstream Linux distros work flawlessly with most hardware. It is a LOT cheaper than any M@c and lets you do things with your OS that you can't do with either Windows or Mac.If I needed a laptop for just word processing, internet stuff, and media consumption, I'd not think twice about throwing Linux on it. However being an IT student, I need something that offers a little bit more. Windows 7 runs flawlessly on my Thinkpad.I don't think I could recommend any Mac to anyone. An iPod yes, but no Apple computers.

If all you're going to be using the Mac for in terms of games is Flight Sim, then a Mac would be perfectly adequate. I have a two year old iMac with an Nvidia 8800 graphics card (512MB Vram) and an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU at 3GHz, and I run FSX very well. Dual booting works nicely, so if you want a mac, then I would say just go for it. I also run some newer casual games like The Sims 3, Spore, and stuff like that all on high settings with great performance. Older games like Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 run just fine as well. So as long as you won't be running top of the line, brand new first person shooters or other graphically intense games, then it should be just fine. Keep in mind I am running a two year old Mac, so newer Macs would give better performance. Just stay away from Macs with integrated graphics chips like the entry level white Macbook and the Mac Mini. I would stay way from the Mac Pro as well, it just is too expensive and an iMac would be fine unless you want to be able to upgrade more than just the RAM and Hard Drive.

Well... Mac is like Ferrari, cost fortune but You look great in it, chicks love it and Your ego is size of Mount Blanc, but on first crossroad You get outperformed by some kid in his Evo with NOS. Choice is Yours.EDIT:About Mac OS X: there is nothing special in Mac OS, it's not a masterpiece of coding, it's just optimized for the one and only hardware chosen for You by Apple. Put Mac OS X in regular PC environment and it will act like Windows. Macs are build like gaming consoles, does Your Xbox have hardware conflicts? No further comment.About Linux: It's cool. For text editing, some other office work. It performs perfect whenever You don't wan't to do anything special with Your PC. I like Linux, I even sometimes use it, but it's of no use in home as entertainment center.

You guys are aware OSX is itself a *nix variant right?There's nothing wrong with Macs as a general purpose computer - in fact it's what I tell most people who aren't gamers to get. I've had a Macbook laptop for many years now and I love the thing. This thread is specifically about using one for FS and other gaming, not about whether the platform is good in general, I think it clearly is. Once you know OSX well, several things do jump out at you as being better than how Windows handles them. One for sure example is the way the "UAC" type user security feature works - occasionally you get asked to authenticate an installer or something like that - it comes up and asks for your password to proceed, that's it. Much more elegant and much less infrequent than UAC's popups in Vista/7. *nix is built from the core with this type of thing in mind and that's why it's so streamlined. Another is the Expose' window management feature - I love that thing and I seriously wish Microsoft would just rip it off fully - Aero Flip isn't even close to as useful.

Every OS has its pros and cons. About Mac OS (and Macs themselves) I don't like the fake mythology and price. Nothing more ;)

I'm in full agreeance about Apple's marketing, I hate it. Those "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" ads are so misleading it's not even funny.

what is an "Applemac"?